View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    103 69.59%
  • I support Russia fully.

    15 10.14%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.70%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.43%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.73%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.41%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #8041

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    For once, I agree with Alastor. Those arguments for Russia destroying their own assets are weak and sound like a desperate attempt to clutch at anything so one wouldn't have to consider some inconvenient alternatives. I don't see any reason why Russia should care about some western contracts after what has gone down in the last year or so.

  2. #8042
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by reavertm View Post
    I might be mistaken but I think oil pipe cannot be just closed with a valve where it is sent from.
    They were gas pipelines and of course Russia could shut them down. In fact they had already effectively done so before they got blown up.
    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    And Germany had agreeded with US desires there no point in risking it. But if the pipelines are gone Germany can only restore its old deal if the original system is same and not under threat from a hostile Ukraine. Germany can't just passively step back it has to actually lean into backing forcing Ukraine to negotiate.
    Why would Germany want to restore the original system when the whole point was to wean themselves off Russian gas? Again, you are being inconsistent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    I agree with Alastor.
    Welcome to the dark side. Get ready to be called various names and endure one strawman after the other.
    Last edited by Alastor; March 26, 2023 at 12:08 PM.

  3. #8043
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I mean I can understand some Mephistophelean plot where Putin blows up Russian stuff to blame on westerners and rally support at home, but its pretty niche stuff and he's not showing that kind of deceptive talent in Ukraine.

    It might make sense in terms of infighting between Russian factions, a Gazprom billionaire faction vs a military/ideological faction maybe? The Duginites making sure the Yacht squad don't force a quick peace to restore the flow of gas?

    I am honestly too ignorant to form a coherent view and happy to blame the Norwegians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    ...
    Welcome to the dark side. Get ready to be called various names and endure one strawman after the other.
    You just agreed with the Finnish guy, you are dead to me bro .

    Jokes aside its an ugly war and not nice people on all sides looking after their angle. There's plenty to feel sick about. I respect there's a few PoVs here to hear.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  4. #8044

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    You think what I'm saying is inconsistent? That shows, yet again, that you don't understand my points. Ukraine has already lost and it keeps on losing more and more. Even if it manages to throw the Russians out, even if it wins, it has lost. It must be mindboggling that things aren't black and white. Victory or defeat. Good guys and bad guys. I get it.

    Secondly, the fact you use words like "crying" and whatever that last sentence of yours is supposed to be, simply validates my earlier point that your understanding lacks nuance.
    When this war is over the United States and it's allies pour money into Ukraine that, along with the massive reparations Russia will be forced to pay, will allow them to rebuild. Then they will be welcomed into NATO as a modern democracy standing against Russian fascism.

    Russia however will not receive a cent, and will remain an international pariah-state with a fractured economy ruled by a fascist dictator, never able to move on from how the rest of the world "wronged" it by not submitting to it's divine right to rule the Earth. And that's the best outcome. Less optimistic outcomes could see a new Russian civil war as the gangsters ruling Russia start fighting over the throne.

  5. #8045
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Jokes aside its an ugly war and not nice people on all sides looking after their angle. There's plenty to feel sick about. I respect there's a few PoVs here to hear.
    Yes, I'm also interested in seeing different PoVs, but in an increasing number of topics lately, this one included, people that are interested in different PoVs have become a small minority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    When this war is over the United States and it's allies pour money into Ukraine that, along with the massive reparations Russia will be forced to pay, will allow them to rebuild. Then they will be welcomed into NATO as a modern democracy standing against Russian fascism.

    Russia however will not receive a cent, and will remain an international pariah-state with a fractured economy ruled by a fascist dictator, never able to move on from how the rest of the world "wronged" it by not submitting to it's divine right to rule the Earth. And that's the best outcome. Less optimistic outcomes could see a new Russian civil war as the gangsters ruling Russia start fighting over the throne.
    This is taking wishful thinking to a whole other level. Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no conceivable outcome where Russia is "forced to pay massive reparations". Barring a direct entry of the US/NATO in the war, the inconceivable scenario, who would force them? We were discussing the possibility of Ukraine managing to remove Russian presence from areas they have taken over, not the impossibility of Ukraine actually "conquering Russia" and/or dictating terms. That's one, secondly, money is not a panacea. That you think money will magically make everything ok, betrays yet again a lack of nuanced understanding. A sort of video game logic I would say.

    As for Russia not getting a cent, that's ok, keep your cents, I'm sure they'd rather take the billions they are making selling their crude instead. You see, what you need to understand is that Russia can't be a pariah-state on the world stage just because the west wants it so. The west is not the world. As long as the rest of the world, including such important states as China and India are happy to be doing business with Russia, Russia will not have to worry about these cents of yours. And as long as Russia has the goods, there will be buyers. Thanks in no small part to Turkey, a NATO member, those buyers will also include the EU, for a while at least.

  6. #8046

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Yes, I'm also interested in seeing different PoVs, but in an increasing number of topics lately, this one included, people that are interested in different PoVs have become a small minority.
    Some points of view are not worthy of consideration, particularly when they contradict objective reality. If I believe that in the antebellum south Whites were the slaves and Blacks the slave owners, or that the Holocaust never happened, or that Russia is somehow a victim of western aggression that forced it to invade Ukraine, I should rightly be regarded as having no credibility on any matter.

    This is taking wishful thinking to a whole other level. Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no conceivable outcome where Russia is "forced to pay massive reparations". Barring a direct entry of the US/NATO in the war, the inconceivable scenario, who would force them?
    They will if they ever want to do business with the EU and U.S. again. Besides which, they may want to get closer to the west once Putin is gone. Xi is clearly licking his lips as he eyes Siberia.

    We were discussing the possibility of Ukraine managing to remove Russian presence from areas they have taken over
    Which you claimed was impossible and called for Russia to be allowed to keep everything it had taken, before Ukrainian freedom fighters sent them running, humiliated, from Kherson, territory Russia had officially annexed. I expect you will have a similar reaction once Donetsk, Luhansk, and Crimea are back in Ukrainian hands.

    That's one, secondly, money is not a panacea. That you think money will magically make everything ok, betrays yet again a lack of nuanced understanding. A sort of video game logic I would say.
    Money is absolutely necessary to rebuild cities after wars and other disasters. What do you think, you just plant a building seed? Did the highway fairy build the U.S. interstate system?

    But no, money doesn't make everything okay, which I never claimed it did. However war crimes tribunals followed by hangings will go a long way towards that.

    As for Russia not getting a cent, that's ok, keep your cents, I'm sure they'd rather take the billions they are making selling their crude instead. You see, what you need to understand is that Russia can't be a pariah-state on the world stage just because the west wants it so. The west is not the world. As long as the rest of the world, including such important states as China and India are happy to be doing business with Russia, Russia will not have to worry about these cents of yours. And as long as Russia has the goods, there will be buyers. Thanks in no small part to Turkey, a NATO member, those buyers will also include the EU, for a while at least.
    Russia has to practically give away it's oil, not to mention the billions it has lost from foreign investors and corporations pulling out and the billions more that the west has seized, none of that is coming back anytime soon. No, the western world isn't the whole world, there's also Russia and it's two fellow tyrannical, backwards dictatorships and sorta-allies Iran and North Korea. Real winning team there. China has dragged it's feet at offering any real military help because, as I stated above, they see a plump, juicy cow just waiting to be carved up.

  7. #8047
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    Some points of view are not worthy of consideration, particularly when they contradict objective reality.
    Ok.

  8. #8048

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Here is another theory into the Nord Stream question as published recently in New York Times.

    Intelligence Suggests Pro-Ukrainian Group Sabotaged Pipelines, U.S. Officials Say
    I would like to point out what the leader of the Swedish investigation says about his opinion on Russian involvement. I agree that a bit more open mind about the possible scenarios than what I have seen here would be beneficial.

    The lawmaker was also told that more than 1,000 pounds of “military grade” explosives were used by the perpetrators.

    Spokespeople for the Danish government had no immediate comment. Spokespeople for the German government declined to comment.

    Mats Ljungqvist, a senior prosecutor leading Sweden’s investigation, told The New York Times late last month that his country’s hunt for the perpetrators was continuing.

    “It’s my job to find those who blew up Nord Stream. To help me, I have our country’s Security Service,” Mr. Ljungqvist said. “Do I think it was Russia that blew up Nord Stream? I never thought so. It’s not logical. But as in the case of a murder, you have to be open to all possibilities.”
    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/07/u...e-ukraine.html

  9. #8049
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    They will if they ever want to do business with the EU and U.S. again. Besides which, they may want to get closer to the west once Putin is gone. Xi is clearly licking his lips as he eyes Siberia.
    "will be forced" and "They might want to get closer"...... not exactly the same thing, is it? Anyway, I'm glad you're not as naive as to think reparations can be imposed on Russia by any outcome of the Ukraine war.

    The only scenario I can think of would be a 1917 like one where a popular uprising overthrows the regime and a wholly new government sues for peace at all cost. No sign whatsoever of that happening any time soon.



    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    But no, money doesn't make everything okay, which I never claimed it did. However war crimes tribunals followed by hangings will go a long way towards that.
    Right, they're well known to bring back the dead .....

    I kind of agree with Alostor that you talk about war as if it's a game. Sure, Putin seems to seeing it that way, but that is exactly the tragedy that needs to end: sacrificing human lives (Ukrainian and Russian alike) for stupid abstract concepts like "Pride", "Glory" "Justice" and "Revenge".
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  10. #8050
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Russia being forced to pay war reparations was a highlight, imo. And in the same post where there was talk of views being incompatible with reality.

    As for revolution, Germany doesn't have Lenin to send with money this time, so that's out of the question too.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  11. #8051
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Russia being forced to pay war reparations was a highlight, imo. And in the same post where there was talk of views being incompatible with reality.

    As for revolution, Germany doesn't have Lenin to send with money this time, so that's out of the question too.
    Russia itself can't be forced but i do see seized Russian assets or money being used instead.

  12. #8052

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Russia itself can't be forced but i do see seized Russian assets or money being used instead.
    There are fundamental limits on how far that works though, and Russia could easily respond by seizing foreign assets in response (if there are any). Additionally, it just means that other countries may be reluctant to keep assets in the US/EU in future, given their proven unreliability.

  13. #8053

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post

    I kind of agree with Alostor that you don't want to see Russia carving up Europe into colonies. Sure, Putin seems to seeing it that way, but that is exactly the tragedy that needs to end: sacrificing human lives (Ukrainian and Russian alike) for stupid abstract concepts like people being allowed to live their lives without worrying barbarian invaders will rape and murder them.
    Fixed that for you.

  14. #8054
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    There are fundamental limits on how far that works though, and Russia could easily respond by seizing foreign assets in response (if there are any). Additionally, it just means that other countries may be reluctant to keep assets in the US/EU in future, given their proven unreliability.
    Yes the UK is a conduit for an immense amount of laundering. Obviously the US is an attractive place to put your dough if you can get it in there and you can get there yourself, but most cant. Some Chinese "naked bureaucrats" use Australia, Canada etc (often they can position children as students or investors in those places) but the main channel whether you're Chinese, Arab, Russian or whatever is money to London, they push it through the various Crown tax havens.

    The UK could burn these people fast but it's a big earner, the US would have to lean hard. One theory is the EU had started to lean on the UK over currency and black money which led to Brexit, but the UK has a shorter friends list now and might have to fold.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  15. #8055

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    Fixed that for you.
    To be fair, there's little reason to believe the Ukrainians will behave any differently towards 'disloyal' ethnic Russians than the Russians have towards Ukrainians.

    Ultimately, as in most cases, it's less a question of whether rape and murder happen than who it happens to.

  16. #8056
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    To be fair, there's little reason to believe the Ukrainians will behave any differently towards 'disloyal' ethnic Russians than the Russians have towards Ukrainians.
    Let me help you with that. Russians are evil, Ukrainians are good. Evil people murder and rape others to death, good people liberate and snuggle them lovingly to death. Understand now?

    Sigh... as long as people keep seeing the world this simplistically, we are going nowhere.
    Last edited by Alastor; March 28, 2023 at 03:43 AM.

  17. #8057
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    Fixed that for you.
    "Carving up Europe" implies attacking NATO. The very reason Putin chose to attack Ukraine now is because he saw the window of opportunity to 'retrieve' Ukraine without attacking NATO was closing. Any peace now will very likely close that window for good.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  18. #8058
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Let me help you with that. Russians are evil, Ukrainians are good. Evil people murder and rape others to death, good people liberate and snuggle them lovingly to death. Understand now?

    Sigh... as long as people keep seeing the world this simplistically, we are going nowhere.
    Simplisticly? Really now? Russians aren't evil, they are indoctrinated into a fascist imperialst worldview, doesn't make them evil. However the Gremlins in the Kremlin are pure fasict evil. Doesn't stop evil from occuring from others, war has a way of bringing up bad traits in a lot of people.

    Howeveer wars of conquest are never for "good", like the current one.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
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  19. #8059
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    Simplisticly? Really now? Russians aren't evil, they are indoctrinated into a fascist imperialst worldview, doesn't make them evil. However the Gremlins in the Kremlin are pure fasict evil. Doesn't stop evil from occuring from others, war has a way of bringing up bad traits in a lot of people.
    You are trying to dispute simplistic thinking by using words like Gremlins to describe real people, yes even those in the Kremlin. That's an interesting approach to proving one's point you have there, taking said point out in the back and murdering it.

    So yeah, simplistically, really now.

  20. #8060
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    You are trying to dispute simplistic thinking by using words like Gremlins to describe real people, yes even those in the Kremlin. That's an interesting approach to proving one's point you have there, taking said point out in the back and murdering it.

    So yeah, simplistically, really now.
    Everyone knows they are human, really, really evil humans, but humans either way. Must feel good defending genocidal manians though, because you missed the point of Russians(the people itself not being evil) but their leaders are. But you rushed to defend their leaders ignoring the people, so we know you are actually trying to defend, Putin and his cronies and not the Russian people. All in the name of "neutral"(yes very neutral, just as I'm the emporor of all mankind) "non-simplistic" worldview.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
    https://www.politicalcompass.org/ana...2.38&soc=-3.44 <-- "Dangerous far right bigot!" -SJWs

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