New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

[zoner16]

So several new articles came out today with a few new screenshots and some info. Party Elite did a good summation video on them:



Here are the screenshots:

Lu Bu fighting what may be a duel. Confirmation of yue (ax) troops, which were not standard equipment for regular soldiers, but peasant militia and tribal auxiliaries used them alot. Some generals are said to have used them as personal weapons as well. Given that and the fact that these guys are wearing yellow and very little armor leads me to believe these may be some converted Yellow Turbans, probably the famous Qingzhou troops. One weird thing is the shield that the yue wielder has. It looks almost like a scutum, with the boss in the center. I know this kind of shield was found in the north during the Northern and Southern dynasties (a century after the end of the Three Kingdoms), but I know of no uses of it during the Three Kingdoms era. Like the thick Jian swords in both trailers, something of an anachronism.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Siege of Xiapi. Very standard Chinese city design. Rectangular shape, with a fully enclosing wall, towers atop the protrusions in the walls, and a much more prominent one over the gatehouse. A secondary wall surrounds the administrative district and palace/castle (depending on the city).
In the foreground, we can see the Cao army, with its very nice looking banners. Can't tell too much about them. Like in the trailer, the zoomed out unit renders look almost like Shogun 1 (since this is pre-alpha, I'll let that go for now). Cao Cao and another general (not Xiahou Dun) ride in the center. Some barricades can also be seen facing the city, so maybe static fortifications for the attacker? Or perhaps a product of siege escalation?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Nice close up shot of Cao Cao atop Shadow Runner, looking very good in that leather horse armor since he can't afford metal yet. His troops have less sameface than they did in the trailer. Banners look even better up close.
The counterweight trebuchet in the foreground is probably the biggest anachronism (about a thousand years out) so far. They should be using traction trebuchets instead.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Another shot of Xiapi, perhaps when it isn't getting attacked. Some very nice looking models and the return of civilians. The far wall of the city can be seen in the background.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And the Cao Cao character art from yesterday, just for completion. He's looking very smug over the now flooded Xiapi, which is a strategy I hope we can recreate in the game.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Daruwind]

The art and style is simply magnificient! I cannot comment the equipment or such but it looks great! especially the siege and the city seems to have at least double layer of walls! Gonna be fun breaking that especially if the AI will be really better

[Intranetusa]

If I had to learn Pinyin, everyone should have to too. And anyways, if Wade Giles "T'sao T'sao" is closer to the phonetic English, its renditions of other words (ie "Beijing" turning into "Peking" or "Jiang Jieshi" becoming "Chiang Kai Shek") are way, way off. Pinyin is a compromise meant to for all languages that use the latin alphabet. It's not perfect but its better than WG.

Who is everyone? Nobody is going to learn a romanization system just to play a video game. For the purpose of making something sound right for video game players, I see no problems with alternating between Pinyin or Wade Giles spelling.

Beijing and Peking are two different names that describe the same city. They are both correct. Same goes for Chiang Kai Shek.

[eXistenZ]

eXistenZ Desert Kingdoms 83% I like how you again omit something damaging your vision or world BTW Queen and Crone as last DLC is just 76%, you know why TKs are 87%? Because Settra does not come second! Never! #SettraRulez Only thing I would trully wish for you is to try and enjoy this madness at least for one day....

As i have explained plenty of times before, there is a difference between actual gameplay content (new campaigns and settings/mechanics, like ED and ToB) and just faction fluff, like Desert kingdoms. And it's CA themself who make this distinction: the price tag should be a hint. Does DK change or add anything to the AI? the superficial politics? The lacking diplomacy? No. thats why it's not considered actual gameplay


That DK has a high rating has a twofold explanation: a) only people who are interested in that area buy it and therefore are likely to rate it higher (I havent bought nomadic tribes because they dont interest me) and b) it means that the artist department and faction designers arent slacking off as the actual gameplay designers are doing at the moment.

76% is still somewhat decent, compared to the 60% of what should have been the testimony that CA hasnt forgotten their base

And if you are saying that historical fans should be happy with a 6/10, then we have nothing to discuss and you are part of the problem

[Anna_Gein]

Sorry to be that guy I can not get excited by all this Chinese nonsense.

I had no clue who was who nor what exactly was happening in their last footage. It was a huge let down. It is nice CA decided to move away from an europe-centric focus for their game but they need to do a better job at explaining what is going on. Or maybe they should just focus on simple narrative during their video like the Shogun 2 introduction.

Additionally moving to an era and a region relatively unknown to their public means they need to focus more on graphics and gameplay. CA videos are bad. They need to hire competent people and sack the failed writers in their staff. Even Rome 2 had better cinematic footage for people unfamiliar with Rome.

The talk about heroes and fantasy mods are annoying as well. How can I care about a story like mod ? I do not know what is the story of the three kingdoms and quite frankly I do not care. I just want a good TW game else I am going to take a different game instead. Thrones of Britannia was marketed as story driven too it its narrative potential was less than bare bone. Even Warhammer does not have such a great narrative potential. It is just an handful badly implemented scripted battles per campaign.

[druchii7]

Honestly this thread is turning into big whining mess. Fantasy fanatics running with torches around, history guys calling for reddit strike on WH fans

CA´s decision to try WH and now 3K to shake old bones seems to work. TW probably never had such big success so far. Like it or not. And CA would do great if they try to grow upon now matter if with scifi or fantasy ala Warcraft, LotR...and then the wheel of time will inevitably turn and CA will be back to more historical titles because Lord of change demands it...

Huberto I can agree with you that ANY TW would benefit from deeper battle mechanics, there is still a lot things to improve. But really stop looking too much into abyss. Dark side of force is pouring back into your mind!

eXistenZ Desert Kingdoms 83% I like how you again omit something damaging your vision or world BTW Queen and Crone as last DLC is just 76%, you know why TKs are 87%? Because Settra does not come second! Never! #SettraRulez Only thing I would trully wish for you is to try and enjoy this madness at least for one day....

druchii7 There are many great mods for WHs, just not here in our little secluded sanctuary If you would like to know some...you can visit my other post http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15593778 But simply trust me that WH fans are as fierce about right paint colours for Carroburg Greatswords as are history fans about proper hoplite armory and weaponry #lore as fanatical as #history

I´m off to more civilized part of Forum, playing new campaign in WH ME for my beloved High Elves and thinking about new R2 campaign pack! Have a nice weekend with whatever games of your choice! :-)

Easy question: appart from an unexplored territory, what does the new game offer to the history oriented gamers? So my spearmen cannot do a basic shieldwall if they don't have the right general... is it... good news? To me that¡s a -1

Daruwind almost al the best complete overhauls produced in the last years come from TWC hosted. I'm not a TWC fanboy, I participate only sometimes but I learned that if you want the best mods, look up the hosted modifications.

They moved out to Asia, that's a +1, but they chose a background in which there's only one main faction (a divided China), clearly a -1. For example, total war shogun would have been almost perfect if they had released a powerful DLC for the invasion of Korea, in which Japan, Korea and China participated. Here they make the same mistake, choosing the wars against the mongols (or other northern tribes/nations) would have been a much richer background for dozens of different factions.

The only good new to me is the better UI. Not a key aspect, but it's definitely a +1. (a -1 and a +1 make a 0 to me). Ok... let's say that a priori, the new sieges look more interesting, that could be a serious +1, but again that is just a +1.

So to sum up, the "good" news is that those fantasy features that I don't want at all won't be there... then why expend a single coin? I see no "completely reworked AI", no "deeper politics", no "complete buildings/settlement rework", no "overhauled trade" no "population and manpower new mechanics". They're putting most of their efforts on developping features that I utterly don't want to find in a total war game. I'd prefer to buy a classical mode only license and pay one third of the original price (as far as they aren't putting much attention or innovation on the part of the product that I might be interested at).

I just read "hero hero hero, kill thousands with a hero, betrayal because I didn't engage in combat, romantic, hero, hero, hero, looting superpowerful superweapon". No news on the features that hardcore history gamers care of. All previous titles had mechanic news and big announcements: attila had atrittion and nomads, rome 2 had the politic factions overhauled, amphibious battles and multisettlement provinces. Those were true efforts to push the mechanics in the right direction. Maybe not too well achieved, but made the games at least worth trying.

It's almost disrespectful to the client: almost a decade asking for better diplomacy and instead of mending it they overlap it with an inner democracy system which is nothing but a distraction from the true flaws of the game that have been there forever. In conclussion, most history fans beg for authenticity and complexity and we get RPG and fantasy.

About 6 months later there will be Imperator Rome. Know how they chose the features? Listening the fanbase: EU4 diplomacy, victoria universalis trade, CK2 fluffy characters, biggest map ever (only sicily has 23 settlements!), more complex battles with battle stances. Any massive crying? No. Why? Respect the fanbase, respect your product, respect the genre. That's all.

I loved to play both, TW and paradox, it was like the ying and the yang. But now I play EU4 and thing "oh , the campaign is going to finish" and when I play rome 2 or attila I think "OMG, is this ever going to finish?". In TW games techs rarely make the difference (ok, -2% upkeep. So fun. Tier 3 sewers. So fun.), buildings rarely make the difference (just pick 1, 2 or 3 optimal builds and repeat them over and over).

[captainkrunch]

Just want to say from what I have seen it's journalists calling Romance mode "regular/default" mode, it seems it is officially called Romance mode, opposed to Classic Mode.


Also, just curious since we have a ton of Chinese history buffs here, in the trailer towards the end we see some light cavalry charging into melee with Swords. They appear to be Jian/straight swords, but from my limited knowledge of Chinese weapons the Dao/Saber would have been the cavalryman's sword of choice in this period(and later the infantryman's too by the end of the Three Kingdom's period, much like how the Roman cavalry Spatha replaced the Gladius). Did cavalry use Jian often too or was this just a decision made by CA?

Also, in the trailer toward the beginning we see a soldier kill a civilian using what appears to be a Guandao. I was under the impression that those did not really exist yet and wouldn't until the Tang. Was that a similar weapon I misidentified or did CA just decide to have a Guandao feature and it is just inaccurate. Or alternatively did Guandao's actually exist and I read wrong. I mean, we have already seen Guan Yu with his Crescent Blade but I let that pass as he was a hero, who much like Lu Bu and his inaccurate Song Era Ji, is just going for a stylistic weapon that I can excuse since he is "unique".

[zoner16]

Also, just curious since we have a ton of Chinese history buffs here, in the trailer towards the end we see some light cavalry charging into melee with Swords. They appear to be Jian/straight swords, but from my limited knowledge of Chinese weapons the Dao/Saber would have been the cavalryman's sword of choice in this period(and later the infantryman's too by the end of the Three Kingdom's period, much like how the Roman cavalry Spatha replaced the Gladius). Did cavalry use Jian often too or was this just a decision made by CA?

The difference between the Jian and the Dao when arming was mostly that the latter was easier to train with. To my knowledge, cavalry didn't specifically opt for one or the other. For the most part, cavalrymen would only pull out their swords if they somehow lost their lances or halberds.

Also, in the trailer toward the beginning we see a soldier kill a civilian using what appears to be a Guandao. I was under the impression that those did not really exist yet and wouldn't until the Tang. Was that a similar weapon I misidentified or did CA just decide to have a Guandao feature and it is just inaccurate. Or alternatively did Guandao's actually exist and I read wrong. I mean, we have already seen Guan Yu with his Crescent Blade but I let that pass as he was a hero, who much like Lu Bu and his inaccurate Song Era Ji, is just going for a stylistic weapon that I can excuse since he is "unique".

That's not necessarily a Guandao. A Guandao has a very large blade and was mostly a training weapon. That weapon is likely a Dadao, which in this time period just means sword with very long handle (the meaning changed over the years), which in practice meant it was essentially a hafted Dao. We do have some records of these existing in the Han dynasty, though details are light on their exact construction.

[Intranetusa]

I don't complain that Warhammerers get new fantasy frachises, but don't want to see historical ones ruined. Cannot see a TW getting significant sales in the average Chinese gamer, they like other genres, other aesthetics... Bad target as far as I kee it. If the wanted to seduce the chinese market could have tried a sino japanish war. Japanish makes ir a sure bet: shogun I and II sold well and adding China would have been not that difficult. They could even just make a DLC for shogun II.

The first or second Sino-Japanese War/WW2 is not going to popular in ANY market. The Chinese won't like it because it's about a shameful time when their country was falling apart and getting invaded. The Japanese won't like it becuase it was during a shameful time when their government was ruled by crazy facists and they were eventually defeated. It's politically sensitive and not a popular topic in any country. And these very late 1800s to mid 20th century events don't make for very good Total War material because the nature of war had changed and formations didn't exist anymore.
3K would sell better in Japan as the story is popular throughout East Asia... Shogun era samurais likely aren't that popular in Korea, mainland China, Taiwan, etc.

[captainkrunch]

The difference between the Jian and the Dao when arming was mostly that the latter was easier to train with. To my knowledge, cavalry didn't specifically opt for one or the other. For the most part, cavalrymen would only pull out their swords if they somehow lost their lances or halberds.



That's not necessarily a Guandao. A Guandao has a very large blade and was mostly a training weapon. That weapon is likely a Dadao, which in this time period just means sword with very long handle (the meaning changed over the years), which in practice meant it was essentially a hafted Dao. We do have some records of these existing in the Han dynasty, though details are light on their exact construction.

Thanks for the reply. I expect the Dadao will probably be treated like an anti-infantry shock weapon similar to Greatswords in Med 2(though using a different animation set of course).

[Daruwind]

Total War: 3K - E3 Gameplay Reveal Video :-)

[Eien]

Total War: 3K - E3 Gameplay Reveal Video :-)

That looks very cool tbh. And the butchering of the names continues lol. I'll probably play it with Chinese voiceover.

[Anna_Gein]

OMG ninja training is back ( 3:50 )

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Cao Cao's horse has the wrong armour. Looking at it again a lot of this armour looks like fake Dynasty Warriors stuff. Also why is Cao Cao wearing a hat and court robes? Cao Cao was a cavalry general and wore armour.

[captainkrunch]

Apparently the ancient Chinese did not know how to construct ladders.


EDIT: Just wanted to say, all in all I REALLY liked the look of that. A few things were off, specifically some of the animations on the axemen at 3:30 seemed off and too fast(though anything is better than R2 anims) and the green icons above the units are somehow worse than the Atilla Icons. All in all I thought it looked great, especially the units which look fantastic. Heavy Spear Guard is a bit of an uninspired name though but w/e.

[zoner16]

Cao Cao's horse has the wrong armour. Looking at it again a lot of this armour looks like fake Dynasty Warriors stuff.

Cao Cao's horse's armor is fine. A little ornate and needs more clear layering in the texture, but the general idea is fine. Xiahou Dun, Yue Jin, and whoever the cavalry commander with Xiahou Dun is look alright. Overly fancy sure, but nothing about their armor stands out as downright wrong.

Lu Bu's horse's armor looks as out of place as his own armor though.

Also why is Cao Cao wearing a hat and court robes? Cao Cao was a cavalry general and wore armour.

Every character gets one costume, I imagine. Since Cao Cao is technically a strategist here, it seems they're going with the more ministerial look for him. It's not wrong headed, as he was minister of works and imperial chancellor for most of his career. His stint as cavalry commander only lasted for the length of the Yellow Turban Rebellion and and the one as a colonel of the army of the western garden was even shorter. After he went off to be a warlord, he didn't fight in combat unless things had really gone wrong.

OMG ninja training is back ( 3:50 )

Yeah those animations looked terrible. The grappling hooks are actually correct, but god those animations look awful.


EDIT: Hey look, the dismount button is back!

Speaking of bad animation. Having a couple of guys spur their horses to leap on the enemy is ok. Having the entire unit do it is silly. Having them do it again after they have stopped charging, just to attack other soldiers standing around just looks idiotic.

[Eien]

Cao Cao's horse has the wrong armour. Looking at it again a lot of this armour looks like fake Dynasty Warriors stuff. Also why is Cao Cao wearing a hat and court robes? Cao Cao was a cavalry general and wore armour.

I was also a little baffled that he wore court robes, with armor on it. Not sure if i saw it wrongly but there was a lamellar type of chestpiece amongst the robes.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Looking at the new images it seems he is wearing armour under his robes. But the hat is so extremely off putting.

Cao Cao also led his cavalry into battle at Xiapi against Lu Bu's cavalry... and won! I get that Cao Cao is a strategist but he needs more of a military look. He was first and foremost an officer who was given administrative roles, rather than the other way around. The horse's face armour is what annoys me, it looks like Batman.

[zoner16]

Cao Cao also led his cavalry into battle at Xiapi against Lu Bu's cavalry... and won!

I know Lu Bu rode out personally to try and break the siege, but I don't know of any source that said Cao Cao met him personally, just that he defeated him, which usually meant his army did.

I get that Cao Cao is a strategist but he needs more of a military look. He was first and foremost an officer who was given administrative roles, rather than the other way around.

Yes, but I honestly think the strategist/minister look suits him more. Most of his battles were won through his strategy and diplomacy and his politics back in Xuchang were just as important to his legacy. Other people fought on the front lines.

[SturmChurro]

Is it just me or does it look kind of dated? The character models are cool though. The icons and stuff, I think, are too obstructive, informative as in you know exactly where your heroes! are, but they seem a bit too much and too big? Looks very gamey.