Cool mod, but....

[Requiescat]

Hi,

Just recently started playing this mod and thought extremely highly of it. The huge amount of work that must have gone into it is obvious.

I only have one little issue, and that is the map of the central-eastern european region is once again complete fantasy, just as bad as the vanilla game if not worse. Is there any chance of rectifying it in future releases?

Cheers

[tornnight]

I would love to make it better. It's really not that hard for me to correct it given some good references.

If anyone has a good topography/terrain map of any region in question. Please let me know.

[Requiescat]

I would be glad to provide you with information, however my issue was not really with the topography but rather the polictical borders and the choice of settlements and/or their names.

[acegogo]

maybe this can help, I´ve kepted for a while but I have not contrasted it with TLR map

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...-c-107-110.jpg

[Requiescat]

Are you serious?

[Requiescat]

Ok, how about this to begin with (Europe circa 1100) http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1100.htm

but I will try to find some more detailed maps specific to the area. I am really only questioning eastern central europe here, not the rest of your map.

[acegogo]

@Requiescat

What do you mean by being serious??? I am sure cities haven´t moved since!!!!SERIOUSLY!!! ;-)

[tornnight]

Ahh, if you mean settlement names then please give me some examples.

Political borders are quite difficult to get right. Oftentimes you don't even have any hard set lines.

[billt568]

Just finished reading Gibbons Decline and Fall v. 6, and that does make the map seem pretty flawed. Venice needs to be stripped of Crete and its Illyrian provinces except maybe ragusa, as they were only gained in the 4th Crusade anyways. The Bulgars were really important as a threat/ally to the Byzantines, Giving them the regions in the NE of the Byzantine empire and starting them as a vassal state would make that work. I'd purge the Kwahramazin (sp?) empire in favor of Flanders or Norway, (Norway would be less work as its really just a clone faction of Denmark) so that we can recreate Hamlet on a macro scale (). Aragon is an easy addition as a clone of Castille. Starting Portugal as a vassal to spain would (badly) do historical justice. I think the caliphate of Syria could be replaced by independents, as they just got mauled over and over. Also, before the 1150 or so Venice was a client kingdom to the Byzantine empire, they did homage and payed tribute to the Emperor.

[Oldgamer]

I want to thank Torn for putting Stettin east of the Oder River. Folks, this is a guy that listens to those who play his mod, and that rapidly increases my sense of loyalty to it!

[Requiescat]

I dont want anyone to get me wrong, I think this is an excellent mod, I am just trying to be constructive. I know that a lot of work is involved and it is almost impossible to get everything right.

But, some of this stuff is fairly easy to find out. You just have to go to unbiased sources because this region is today divided between a lot of smaller nations, all biased in their histories.

This is what I think how eastern central europe should be like:

There should be a faction for Romania consisting of 2 provinces: Wallachia and Moldova. City names: ask a Romanian LOL. There should also be Cumans somewhere in that area (light horse archer units, etc) which is north east of present day Romania....maybe rebels.

Hungary should have at least 3 provinces at start( maybe even 4). Western Hungary (west of the danube), eastern Hungary (east of the danube...dah) and Transilvania further to the east. Currently you have the cities of Buda, Pest and Cluj in these provinces. Buda was a small city back then but the major city of that region was a place called Estergom. Pest was a tiny village, completely insignificant untill probably well after the medieval period. That province should have a place called Varad in it. And transilvania should most definately have a Hungarian named city such as Gyulafejervar or Kolozsvar as its capital. Its ethnicity should be magyars and szekels and germans. A forth province I would suggest for Hungary is northern Hungary, north of the bend in the danube river, probably called Nyitra, populated by magyars and slovaks, city name same as the province.

Croatia should have a province to itself.... but prob an independent/rebel faction.

This is just what i can think of at this point, I don't want to go any further without providing sources.....

[tornnight]

I dont want anyone to get me wrong, I think this is an excellent mod, I am just trying to be constructive. I know that a lot of work is involved and it is almost impossible to get everything right.

But, some of this stuff is fairly easy to find out. You just have to go to unbiased sources because this region is today divided between a lot of smaller nations, all biased in their histories.

This is what I think how eastern central europe should be like:

There should be a faction for Romania consisting of 2 provinces: Wallachia and Moldova. City names: ask a Romanian LOL. There should also be Cumans somewhere in that area (light horse archer units, etc) which is north east of present day Romania....maybe rebels.

Hungary should have at least 3 provinces at start( maybe even 4). Western Hungary (west of the danube), eastern Hungary (east of the danube...dah) and Transilvania further to the east. Currently you have the cities of Buda, Pest and Cluj in these provinces. Buda was a small city back then but the major city of that region was a place called Estergom. Pest was a tiny village, completely insignificant untill probably well after the medieval period. That province should have a place called Varad in it. And transilvania should most definately have a Hungarian named city such as Gyulafejervar or Kolozsvar as its capital. Its ethnicity should be magyars and szekels and germans. A forth province I would suggest for Hungary is northern Hungary, north of the bend in the danube river, probably called Nyitra, populated by magyars and slovaks, city name same as the province.

Croatia should have a province to itself.... but prob an independent/rebel faction.

This is just what i can think of at this point, I don't want to go any further without providing sources.....

We can't add any more regions. So the best we can do is swap.

Cluj (Latin) = Kolozsvar (Hungarian)

Esztergom may be a be good replacement for Buda, even though Buda was also important. Esztergom was the capital until mid-13th century.

According to what I read, Pest was just as significant as Várad at that time. Neither were that important, Varad was a castle and Pest was a trading hub. However, Varad would fit into the province better.

So I guess the options are Esztergom and Buda or Esztergom and Varad.

[Umbrisse]

1.) Take some screen shots of the campaign map while fully zoomed out - use paint or another program to edit it and point out what the borders should be and where settlements should be.

2.) Take a real map (like the ones posted above) and edit those.

There are plenty of places to host images - I think you can even directly upload them on this forum.

Seriously, Torn is the coolest mod maker ever... he'll listen to you (you clearly know what you're talking about), but IMO having something to look at would make this a hell of a lot easier.

[Requiescat]

Acegogo! That is a huge map dude, its the map of the entire world, I am talking about something that is a lot more regionalised. Besides, the info presented on that is irrelevant to the period that the mod takes place in. And yes, cities do change hands and therefore names, lose or gain significance over time....

I thought you were kidding when you posted that.

[Requiescat]

Umbrisse,

Good advise, will do.

[Umbrisse]

I always give good advice =P

[Umbrisse]

Also, with regard to your long post above, I fully support changing borders, moving cities/castles around, and generally making things more realistic, but there are two important things here:

1.) There is a hard-coded limitation to the number of factions possible.
2.) Torn appears to be trying to balance the West, North, and the East (examples being adding Kiev, Syrians, etc).

I'm looking at the year 1100 map you posted above and for the most part, all of the large factions are represented in M2TW. If anything has to be cut, it's the smallest factions. If you look at the maps here, compare the maps in yearly progression... 1200 gets a lot more crowded, and 1300 just makes your brain explode with the number of factions.

So in summary, changing borders and moving cities = Good.... adding more factions = Very limited capability (blame Creative Assembly).

[Requiescat]

Yeah you are right, and I guess I am not really after extra factions, just more accurate provinces and cities for that region. I realise that there is a balancing issue here, but every mod maker seems to ignore this region and largely leaves it the same as the vanilla. I think this is a mistake because there was a lot of wars fought here, some fairly advanced factions were present and there was a large clash of catholic, orthodox, muslim and asiatic cultures, all very exotic by medieval european standards.

[Umbrisse]

Can you imagine a map with 50 factions? I for one would LOVE IT. You'd see that "Faction Eliminated" pop-up a hell of a lot more. Blame Creative Assembly.

Go make some maps to help make this mod better, I'm going to sleep.

[vhs1983]

I second Umbrisse. I'd love to see the ceiling raised for the number of factions. You might just end up with a bunch of clones, but I'm sure many players would be satisfied enough to be involved with the culture (especially if it's their ancestry).

Regarding the factions in this mod, I feel that some of the additions are great- Kiev is a realistic addition, I think, and it adds one more to the Orthodox nations (which felt a little bit... a bit of a black sheep compared to the number and abilities shared by the two larger religions in the game). The Abbassids, too, hold a worthy place (at least from territorial representation), and are a nice addition to the Muslim side of the conflict.

However, I'm not really sure about the Syrian Caliphate and the Khwarezmids...
(I haven't read the campaign description for the Syrian Caliphate, but unless it is supposed to represent the Ayyubid Dynasty, then the inclusion of such a faction is questionable in necessity. Additionally, the Khwarezmids seemed to have emerged from the Abbassids, but only lasted about a century before being crushed by the Mongols.)


I think it's worth noting that we can't duplicate historical progression. In fact, the whole point of the game is, in fact, to carve your own history with your faction. Therefore, we should take a few things into account when we decide who should be on the list of 'factions'. First, considering that the game has a definite start date, we should be mindful of who was around at that time- in significant force, anyway. Second, we should be mindful of what became of these powers, and what powers arose after the start date, and even what became of these powers as well. Finally, we should, for purposes of fun-ness, decide which factions are more iconic, and let that slightly sway the vote (for instance, a Bulgarian would definitely want to play as the Bulgars- as would many other players).

With that being said, I'm glad to see that the following factions are in consideration for the future, according to the Wiki.
* Bulgars
* Georgia
* Aragon
* Pisa (I don't know, but it would seem to have a more realistic presence than Milan, anyway).

Additionally, I'd like to see Armenia, and if the Syrian Caliphate isn't supposed to represent it, the Ayyubids.

Also, note that, while I love history, many of the above nations are unfamiliar to me, so my suggestions or opinions may be a bit misplaced.
(However, I think that it's clear from the first map that the Byzantines are a little bit poorly endowed in the campaign in comparison to reality.)