Something to believe in

[Noble Savage]

I am an athiest ,not by choice but by default ( my brain has rejected all religons as false) . But as an athiest I feel i'm really missing out. I would love to have faith. I have faith in things that I find logical eg Faith of my family and their love,faith in my workmates ,faith in my own ability when studying ,even a small faith in democracy. I just wish I had spiritual faith. I really would like a god ,deity or values to believe ,but this kind of faith doe'snt stick with me,my logical mind rejects everything in this field even though deep down I would love something I can "fall back" on in times of trouble and that warm feeling people in religon seem to have. To be in a religous community and pray certainly does appeal but until a religon breaks down my logic barriers ,I'm stuck with the meaning of life question which again has no answer. Do any other athiests or unbelivers wish they could find faith in their hearts . Sorry If I sound noob but I really hope someone has an answer or similar feelings.

Thanks
Paul

[Mathias]

You are lucky to have faith in your family and their love. I on the other hand have faith in nothing but myself and I too do feel an "emptyness" if that is the right word. I don't wish a spiritual faith though, I only wish to have some other people to have faith in. But if I had that I would probably seek more though, we humans have a great ability to never be content.

[redirflow]

Faith is an empty glass and life is a glass of water; you can not ask other people to tell you what the taste is.

[The Good]

I know what you mean. You want to believe in something, a religion, if you will.

Well, I can say one thing about the logical-ness of God (A Creator) existing, the universe and Earth are just too perfect looking in design to have been a mere accident, if it were an accident, I can tell you right now that there wouldn't even be "creatures" as inteligent as Humans. Infact, there may be nothing at all. Can you imagine a painting without a painter who painted it? Paintings don't paint themselves you know, and it takes a painter to paint a painting. Same rule of logic aplies to the Universe and Earth, it takes a Creator to create this universe we are living in, and the world we are living in. Sure things are not perfect, but that is another story, have you ever read about the origins of Satan/Lucifer/the Devil? He is responsible for all this madness we see going on in the world. You may think it is the person commiting the sin, and it most likely is, but it is really the Devil bringing the urge to sin in their minds.

[Pirate36]

I know what you mean. You want to believe in something, a religion, if you will.

Well, I can say one thing about the logical-ness of God (A Creator) existing, the universe and Earth are just too perfect looking in design to have been a mere accident, if it were an accident, I can tell you right now that there wouldn't even be "creatures" as inteligent as Humans. Infact, there may be nothing at all. Can you imagine a painting without a painter who painted it? Paintings don't paint themselves you know, and it takes a painter to paint a painting. Same rule of logic aplies to the Universe and Earth, it takes a Creator to create this universe we are living in, and the world we are living in.

Sorry this is repeated over and over by God believers and it is a complete fallacy. You paint yourself into a corner when you say it takes a creator to create the universe. One simple question....Who created God?

[Blau&Gruen]

Who created God?

It is not unlike in the other thread, you cannot disregard the limitations and the purposes of a concept.

[Pirate36]

delete (double post)

[Pirate36]

It is not unlike in the other thread, you cannot disregard the limitations and the purposes of a concept.

I am not disregarding. Is he/she/it (God) metaphysical or physical?

Cannot have both.

If you claim God is a creator then he exerts control on the physical universe therefore must abide by the laws of physics.

If he is metaphysical...thats another argument all together.

[joerd9]

I am not disregarding. Is he/she/it (God) metaphysical or physical?

Cannot have both.

If you claim God is a creator then he exerts control on the physical universe therefore must abide by the laws of physics.

If he is metaphysical...thats another argument all together.

Are you sure that this logic is precise? God can well create something physical and be above the physical laws of his creation. In analogy to the scientist who sets up an experiment, defines its content and border parameters and is nevertheless not subject to his parameters.

Not that I'd care, to be honest. I guess I'm merely being pedantic about logic...

[Garnier]

Creation is evidence, but it is impossible to prove to someone that God exists. The only way for them to have proof is when they experience Him firsthand, just like the only proof I could have that you exist, is if I met you.

As for "who created God", no one. God is.

[Blau&Gruen]

... too much fun ...

[Noble Savage]

I know what you mean. You want to believe in something, a religion, if you will.

Well, I can say one thing about the logical-ness of God (A Creator) existing, the universe and Earth are just too perfect looking in design to have been a mere accident, if it were an accident, I can tell you right now that there wouldn't even be "creatures" as inteligent as Humans. Infact, there may be nothing at all. Can you imagine a painting without a painter who painted it? Paintings don't paint themselves you know, and it takes a painter to paint a painting. Same rule of logic aplies to the Universe and Earth, it takes a Creator to create this universe we are living in, and the world we are living in. Sure things are not perfect, but that is another story, have you ever read about the origins of Satan/Lucifer/the Devil? He is responsible for all this madness we see going on in the world. You may think it is the person commiting the sin, and it most likely is, but it is really the Devil bringing the urge to sin in their minds.

I agree with what you are saying but the good book doesn't do christianity any favours. I understand that many of todays morals have come from the bible but it really doesn't explain enough to me. I don't think it mentions where god came from and his origins,thats only the start of the it. While I really do enjoy reading it and I do admire its prinicple ,I can't attach myself to any religon that has caused more deaths than anything else in the world.I
I must repeat again in my eyes it story telling at its best ,Revelations is a great read.My search goes on

[bdh]

I am an athiest ,not by choice but by default ( my brain has rejected all religons as false) . But as an athiest I feel i'm really missing out. I would love to have faith. I have faith in things that I find logical eg Faith of my family and their love,faith in my workmates ,faith in my own ability when studying ,even a small faith in democracy.

Thats not faith, thats reasoned reliance.

would love something I can "fall back" on in times of trouble and that warm feeling people in religon seem to have.

Its called hope, and its an entirely faith driven process. Its really useful, but also exploitable (like the lotto). Indeed, hope is the most powerful human emotion. People will always perform better when the rewards are uncertain and the future unknown.

To be in a religous community and pray certainly does appeal but until a religon breaks down my logic barriers

Its not going to happen.

,I'm stuck with the meaning of life question which again has no answer.

Thats because, at the end of the day, you have to accept that life is illogical and that to achieve any level of spirituality you have to believe in life for its own sake. Until you can accept meaning as, 'just because' you will be unable to have faith. With that comes a sense of balance and order which normally isn't there, from that comes a certainty that either the balance will be restored or righteousness will ultimately triumph over evil. Why? Just because, and it is good. Why do you get out of bed every morning after all?

[Noble Savage]

Thats not faith, thats reasoned reliance.

Its called hope, and its an entirely faith driven process. Its really useful, but also exploitable (like the lotto). Indeed, hope is the most powerful human emotion. People will always perform better when the rewards are uncertain and the future unknown.

I like this Definition. Never really thought about hope entwined with faith.

Its not going to happen.

I have seen this happen before,someone I went to college with who was going to be a top physicist (he was so logically minded) then he went away around the world and told me all he had learnt at college was rubbish and his faith was the only logical thing in the world.

Noble Savage -

Believing is like breathing. If you think too much about it, it gets harder to do. So just stop thinking so hard, latch onto something you like and believe.

You can separate your spiritual side from your logical side. Use your logical mind to shape your spirituality. You can even keep the uncertainty you have about your religion, just don't let it rule over you. There is nothing wrong with it, it's not hypocritical. As long as you understand what you're doing and are honest about it.

Something to think about ,thanks

[Zenith Darksea]

Well, as Christ said, "Come and see." All humans have the innate capacity and disposition to believe in God (or in some cases gods) - it's a question of taking the time to look for yourself.

[Yuiis]

I just dont see the difference between the warmth a religious community can give you or the warmth your normal friends give you every day. We all need to feel loved. Its a human necessity. By what, or who, that matters not. My opinion is the following: If you really need that help, go fetch it in your friends, or family, not in a group that you even consider to go against logic or have beliefs that are not true.

I dont know see...ummm....I agree that forming part of a religious group might help in these situations, but I dont really know to what extent. How can you believe in an allmighty fair God, if -imagine- your wife and two kids died in a car accident. I just dont see how a religion could make you feel better giving a religious explanation for such accident.

Not that a logical one would do either...but I think friends or family can give you a better help in these situations.

[wilting]

Well, as Christ said, "Come and see." All humans have the innate capacity and disposition to believe in God (or in some cases gods)

Which is exactly why I started questioning religion. I realised it was a human matter.

[Zenith Darksea]

How can you believe in an allmighty fair God, if -imagine- your wife and two kids died in a car accident.

That depends entirely on your scope of perception. You might not think it's fair from your point of view, but what if there were a bigger picture to look at? Obviously such a tragedy is never a good thing to happen to anyone, but if there were an eternal God then what happens in a finite universe is only of finite significance in comparison to an infinite existence. The whole point of Christianity is exactly that this life isn't fair, and that we must attain a closeness to God that allows the soul (and eventually the body) to escape from death.

[Yuiis]

That depends entirely on your scope of perception. You might not think it's fair from your point of view, but what if there were a bigger picture to look at? Obviously such a tragedy is never a good thing to happen to anyone, but if there were an eternal God then what happens in a finite universe is only of finite significance in comparison to an infinite existence. The whole point of Christianity is exactly that this life isn't fair, and that we must attain a closeness to God that allows the soul (and eventually the body) to escape from death.

I see what you say zenith. But I dont think this explanation would settle up my mind if such a tragedy occured to me. The argument against you then is: Why believe in infiniteness if we don't have a single proof (material) that it exists. From the thread's author point of view I think he has trouble with this issue, he like other atheists views things from a logical point of view.

My point is that I dont think seeing things this way is any better than the atheist way of looking at it: Damn how unlucky i've been...

I mean, in the time you are left alone, the tragedy is going to be as heavy as if you are a non-believer. I think that in one's subconscious, it is a weight that will never dissapear. I do agree it helps relieve the mind a bit, but as I said before, friends or family can do that just as well.

[Kino]

Noble Savage -

Believing is like breathing. If you think too much about it, it gets harder to do. So just stop thinking so hard, latch onto something you like and believe.

You can separate your spiritual side from your logical side. Use your logical mind to shape your spirituality. You can even keep the uncertainty you have about your religion, just don't let it rule over you. There is nothing wrong with it, it's not hypocritical. As long as you understand what you're doing and are honest about it.