If we didn't know, would we know?

[TestudoAubreii]

Greetings,

Let me begin by stating that I searched around and I did not find a thread that is quite realted to this one. So, if there is one I missed, I apologize and I'm sure it will find its way there.

While I was at work yesterday, I was reading throught some of these threads and I got to tell you there are various opinions and beliefs, it is quite intriguing. After work, I was driving to school and I was thinking about some of those opinions and beliefs that I came across earlier in the day. I thought this would be a great place to ask a few questions, for I believe that here, I will get a variety of intelligent responses.

All right. There are many whom believe in religion and god and there are many of us who do not. One of the questions I'll ask is: If there were no religions, would there be any religion? I know this is a big hypothetical to many of you, but just think about this: If everything just started over right now, and we had a clean slate free of all thought that was ever drilled into our heads about what to beleive in and when to beleive in it; if he had the knowledge of the working world as we do today, would mankind have a need to invent religion?
Let's say, hypothetically again, that we went back to the beginning, to the very first time that man saw a bolt of lightning streak downward from the sky and hit the ground and wonder where it came from. However, there is one drastic difference, the difference being that man knew that lightning was produced by a large electrical field in the clouds that cause, for lack of a better term, a spark and not caused by god. He knew that the lightning was formed during a thunderstorm and knew how a thunderstorm was formed, and so on...
Do you beleive that we, as a world society, would still try and invent a religion and why? Do you think mankind would still do it because mankind has an incredible desire to control others and to expand his control by convincing the populace to die for thier diety? Do you think religion would eventually come about because of the one great fear and the one great unknown, death?
Here is another question I had: If you were not taught religion from the time you were old enough to hear, would you still have your beliefs? Would all that claim to know god, still in fact know god, if you did not know god?
I think that it would be quite interesting to have a group of people that were brought up on just what we know about the world and see how they would percieve things with anyone shoving religion down their throat. Although probably not the most ethical experiment, but a curiosioty none the less.
Many of you may think that this is not fair becuase it seems like this would be is a controlled environment. However, what I am trying to get at is
what if we, and our experimentees, were free from the brutality, propaganda and the irrational fears that, in my opinion, are associated with religion, would there indeed be reilgion or even a need for it?
I apologize for my lack of articulation, but I hope that made some sort of sense and thanks for your attention.

morrisonicus

[Curtana]

An interesting question.

There is a theory that religion is a by-product of 5th order intentionality. I'm not saying this theory is the be all and end all. Just that it is. It breaks down like this:

Most animals have 1st and sometimes 2nd order intentionality. “I want that. I'm hungry. Go away or I'll bite you...” They see other individuals / animals as objects, they do not conceive that other individuals have intentions also.

The other apes appear to have higher orders of intentionality still to accommodate their more complex social groups. Some people might profitably argue about where various animals come on the intentionality scale, elephants for example.

One thing is clear, as far as we know, only humans have the highest capacity for intentionality. I think that so-and-so should do what what's-his-name told him to because it is the will of thingumybob etc.... The more people's intentions you can conceive of the higher the levels of intentionality. The capacity for a brain to conceive of a higher-beings intentions and will is only achieved with human levels of intentionality.

The point I'm edging towards here is that humans would invent religion even if it did not exist because that is how our brains are programmed. Cognitive determination. You think the way you think because the brain you do the thinking with works a certain way. I am not saying the way the brain is made determines the specifics of those thoughts, merely the general outlines.
Consequently I would argue that unless unreconstructed atheists replace religion with something to believe in religion will always exist for ever and ever. Amen.

[TestudoAubreii]

Thanks for your response, Curtana.

Yes, but would it exist if it never existed? We know religion and god today becasue we were always made to believe in gods and thier religions. I am of the opinion that most of the concepts of the gods and thier religions came from an ancient lack of undertanding of how the universe, world and its elements operate. I am pretty certain that religion will always be with us, at least for our short lifetime, I am just asking the would it be here if no one ever knew about it.
I guess one reason why I bring this up is because of a thought I had. The various gods that we are aware of today have everything to do with everything that we know. They made the grass greeen and the sky blue. I believe I've even heard that they made banannas cylindrical and curved for easy access and handling. However, what if we knew nothing about gods or god? I would seem that a god or gods would still be around because they created everything, but would they be in our thoughts if we were never introduced to them?

[morteduzionism]

If there were no religions, would there be any religion?

'religion' strictly defined is the shared rituals and beliefs of a community. So in that sense as long as you have a community you will have "religion." But to answer your question, yes there will always be spiritual dogma/'religion' because humans are concerned with eshatology.

Do you beleive that we, as a world society, would still try and invent a religion and why? Do you think mankind would still do it because mankind has an incredible desire to control others and to expand his control by convincing the populace to die for thier diety? Do you think religion would eventually come about because of the one great fear and the one great unknown, death?

for any society/community to last there has to be rules/organization. various tools are used to achieve 'community' one of the tools in all likelihood would be some form of religion. just like now it would be used to control large segments of the population.

Here is another question I had: If you were not taught religion from the time you were old enough to hear, would you still have your beliefs? Would all that claim to know god, still in fact know god, if you did not know god?

How would they? The society you're talking about doesn't seem like a place to admitt one is having 'visions'...lol...humans have to be potty trained...if we don't know instinctually to not pee on ourselves how can someone argue we'd know about a god

However, what I am trying to get at is
what if we, and our experimentees, were free from the brutality, propaganda and the irrational fears that, in my opinion, are associated with religion, would there indeed be reilgion or even a need for it?

Absolutely there'd be a need for religion! for every brutal act you can name done in the name of some religion...think about how much worse it'd be if NOONE feared some form of eternal damnation...i don't think there'd be as many suicide bombers if the people thought they'd be going to hell as soon as they died

[TestudoAubreii]

I can agree to some of your statements. However, I believe that humans are concerned with eshatology because we were taught that there will be things such as the end of days or the end of reality on one finally meets his/her maker, if you will. I also believe the way religion is based in a community is derived from the ancient writings and teachings which define a religion that we've learned. I do not necassarily believe that communal religion as we know it would be the same if the communal religion as we know it was never instilled upon us.
I do not think that religion would be needed to scare of the brutes, perhaps a police force made up of gorillas. I do not necassarily agree that the world would be a more brutal place without religion, it is pretty brutal right now, perhaps because of religion.

[morteduzionism]

I can agree to some of your statements. However, I believe that humans are concerned with eshatology because we were taught that there will be things such as the end of days or the end of reality on one finally meets his/her maker, if you will.

no, the egyptian book of the dead is 100% about the afterlife...and that predates the "end of days" stories...so humans have been curious about the afterlife i'd imagine since there has been humans...

there'd have to be some explanation/story(in your society) for why people just stopped living...

I do not think that religion would be needed to scare of the brutes, perhaps a police force made up of gorillas. I do not necassarily agree that the world would be a more brutal place without religion, it is pretty brutal right now, perhaps because of religion

im not trying to sway you to my side but...you don't think the fear of hell keeps some people in check? i do. if there wasn't the threat of eternal damnation...you can get over the fear of a beating or going up against "gorillas"...but if you think your soul will burn for eternity...eternity is a long time...i think that fear checks a lot more people than you or could imagine

[ajm317]

im not trying to sway you to my side but...you don't think the fear of hell keeps some people in check? i do. if there wasn't the threat of eternal damnation...you can get over the fear of a beating or going up against "gorillas"...but if you think your soul will burn for eternity...eternity is a long time...i think that fear checks a lot more people than you or could imagine

Well judging from my own experience, I don't believe in hell, and as such I certainly don't fear it, and yet, I've never killed anyone, stolen a car etc.

Furthermore, the brain is a marvelous tool. It is capable of rationalizing almost anything. "They deserved it", "god hates this person", "god doesn't mind if I steal, I need to."

To be quite honest, I don't think anyone abstains from violence for fear of hell. I think that the fundamentally human quality of empathy plays the key role.

Have YOU ever thought of doing something violent, but stopped for fear of hell? Has anyone you know? I don't think anyone does, the clergy just keep telling us they do so we have a reason to keep them around.

[johnny76]

no, the egyptian book of the dead is 100% about the afterlife...and that predates the "end of days" stories...so humans have been curious about the afterlife i'd imagine since there has been humans...
there'd have to be some explanation/story(in your society) for why people just stopped living...

Would they be so curious if we know what we do now? I think you are talking about an ancient religion, while morrisonicus is speaking of a society that knows what we know now. Death will always be a curiosity. There isn't one person that can tell any one that there is a heaven in which they can enter if that person is "good", and there is not anyone who can tell us that that if you are "bad" you are going to hell. It is all a representation of how we know things now. Take all of that away and bring in the modern age, would it still be the case?

you don't think the fear of hell keeps some people in check? i do. if there wasn't the threat of eternal damnation...you can get over the fear of a beating or going up against "gorillas"...but if you think your soul will burn for eternity...eternity is a long time...i think that fear checks a lot more people than you or could imagine

Oh yeah, people are always going to fear hell and eternal damnation, because we are programed to fell in such a way. Can you get over being beat up by the "gorillas"? Well, yes you can. Some kids get over being beat up by a bully by not taking their nonsense anymore and scking them in the nose. Essentially, religion is sort of the bully in society's case, some tend to hit the bullies in the nose. Do you not think that the defintion of a soul may have come from religion? I mean after all, that is what is being saved, is it not?

Furthermore, the brain is a marvelous tool. It is capable of rationalizing almost anything. "They deserved it", "god hates this person", "god doesn't mind if I steal, I need to."
To be quite honest, I don't think anyone abstains from violence for fear of hell. I think that the fundamentally human quality of empathy plays the key role.
Have YOU ever thought of doing something violent, but stopped for fear of hell? Has anyone you know? I don't think anyone does, the clergy just keep telling us they do so we have a reason to keep them around.

I agree with you. I think, fundementally, that empathy is a trait in human beings that some may mistake for holiness, our perhaps righteousness. I happen to believe that this may be what seperates us from everything else. Maybe, just maybe we do not abide by a set of rules put forth by what many percieve as religious guidlines, but by natural human empathy. Futhermore, I do not care who you are, everyone one...from the person who has nothing to the person who has everything, monetarily and spiritualy, everyone thinks of "bad" things. Why is it that some people do those "bad" things and some people do not, even though when they know it may do them some good, then they turn to religion?