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  1. #1
    Curtana's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default To believe in freewill must we believe in the soul?

    Freewill has been discussed here before but not this specific question, I think. Plus it is probably safe to say the issue is not likely to be resolved and discussing it again causes no harm, right?

    Everything in the universe appears to conform to the laws of nature. Given that our brains are physical objects this must mean they too follow these laws. How can these brains generate freewill given that they have to follow specific pathways and laws? So freewill cannot exist.

    Alternatively some kind of inexplicable metaphysical entity exists within us, the soul, and this generates true freewill.

    This is the philosophical problem I wish to resolve. I cannot believe in the soul because its existence is unproven. I want to believe in freewill but cannot reason it into existence. Help me.
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    Default Re: To believe in freewill must we believe in the soul?

    you can do whatever you want within these laws of nature. why would you want more? isn't life good enough? i think it is good enough. does it really matter then wether or not we can do really everything?
    if you would ask me, being more free doesn't automatically mean you will have it better, although many people believe you will.
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    chris_uk_83's Avatar Physicist
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    Default Re: To believe in freewill must we believe in the soul?

    You assume freewill even exists at all and we aren't simply preprogrammed. It's entirely possible that we only have the illusion of having made decisions and that, in reality, all our decisions are already made, we just act them out. After all, how can what is basically a complicated computer (our brain) make a decision completely on its own without following its programming procedure?

    Our programming procedure is just done in a different way than we would program a computer. It also takes a little longer.

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    TheKwas's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: To believe in freewill must we believe in the soul?

    This is the philosophical problem I wish to resolve. I cannot believe in the soul because its existence is unproven. I want to believe in freewill but cannot reason it into existence. Help me.
    How intellectually dishonest. Despite however much you 'want' something, you should really look at the issue objectively and not come to any conclusions (or state the conclusion you want) before you conduct your research or intellectual inquiry.

    As far as I can see, if you don't believe in a soul then the only logical outcome is that there is no 'free will', just a pretty good illusion.
    1) The creation of the world is the most marvelous achievement imaginable.
    2) The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic quality, and (b) the ability of its creator.
    3) The greater the disability (or handicap) of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.
    4) The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.
    5) Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of an existent creator we can conceive a greater being — namely, one who created everything while not existing.
    6) Therefore, God does not exist.


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    Default Re: To believe in freewill must we believe in the soul?

    Well I think it is healthy to believe that we have free will. If we don't then we can justify anything. Calvinism, a sect of Christianity believes God controls all human actions and pre-determined whether you go to hell or not, and God does it just at his own whim. So, no matter what you do you will go to heaven or hell according to his will.

    That also means that if God or a powerful spirit/entity/force of some sort has foreordained you to commit murder on this person/date/time/place, then it will happen you will end up committing murder and nothing you do can change it.

    As to whether in objective reality free will exists or not, we should think it does otherwise we would think there is no such thing as choice. If someone is murdered or raped, then that would mean it was "meant" by God/universe to happen thus we should not try to actively prevent it through teaching people murder/rape is wrong because it can never be stopped if God/universe foreordained it to happen.

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    TheKwas's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: To believe in freewill must we believe in the soul?

    That also means that if God or a powerful spirit/entity/force of some sort has foreordained you to commit murder on this person/date/time/place, then it will happen you will end up committing murder and nothing you do can change it.
    Except no one sane would ever think like that. If a person thinks "hmm I want to kill my wife, and since there's no free-will I'm now forced to kill my wife", he is being nonsensical, because he has no way of determining the future until he has managed to calculation every single variable in the Universe. It would be just as sane to say the opposite and say "hmm I want to kill my wife, but since there's no free-will I can't".

    If someone is murdered or raped, then that would mean it was "meant" by God/universe to happen thus we should not try to actively prevent it through teaching people murder/rape is wrong because it can never be stopped if God/universe foreordained it to happen.
    Again, you draw conclusions as to what we should do because we have no free-will, which is obviously a contradiction. It is just as logical to say "these past murders have impacted our brain functions in such a way that we now came to the conclusion that we must try and prevent that in the future, and our new prevention acts are also determined."

    Whether or not we know free will doesn't exist, we should not change our actions significantly at all (perhaps we should take materialistic determination more seriously in a ghetto situation, but that's the public administration talking in me) because we are still grossly ignorant of the future and of the variables that impact our future. Determination is going to take its course whether or not we believe in it or not.
    1) The creation of the world is the most marvelous achievement imaginable.
    2) The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic quality, and (b) the ability of its creator.
    3) The greater the disability (or handicap) of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.
    4) The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.
    5) Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of an existent creator we can conceive a greater being — namely, one who created everything while not existing.
    6) Therefore, God does not exist.


    Garbarsardar's love child, and the only child he loves. ^-^

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    Default Re: To believe in freewill must we believe in the soul?

    Free will is interesting. How do you define it? Our ability to choose what we do? Is this not just the same as any animal chooses what they do based on a mix of instinct and experience. Obviously our choices have far greater implications, but are of the same principle.

    So there is another interesting way of looking at it. Either everything with a brain has free will as a result of that brain's programming or all animals have souls.

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    Default Re: To believe in freewill must we believe in the soul?

    Since whatever action you take is entirely of your own decision you have freewill. Whats so hard to understand? Nobody forces you to do anything, you always choose yourself.

    If your governed by the laws of nature that is not even a factor. Choosing to do things that are impossible like have children as a man, fly, and shoot fireballs can't happen. They are not even a choice so if you can't do them that doesn't mean you dont have freewill.

    Just remember that EVERYTHING you do is by choice, you can choose to do anything including murder but you have to deal with the consequences. That is what it means to have freewill.
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    Default Re: To believe in freewill must we believe in the soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric View Post
    Since whatever action you take is entirely of your own decision you have freewill. Whats so hard to understand? Nobody forces you to do anything, you always choose yourself.

    If your governed by the laws of nature that is not even a factor. Choosing to do things that are impossible like have children as a man, fly, and shoot fireballs can't happen. They are not even a choice so if you can't do them that doesn't mean you dont have freewill.

    Just remember that EVERYTHING you do is by choice, you can choose to do anything including murder but you have to deal with the consequences. That is what it means to have freewill.

    hmmm...

    all choices are free choices, but some are more free than others.

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    TheKwas's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: To believe in freewill must we believe in the soul?

    Since whatever action you take is entirely of your own decision you have freewill. Whats so hard to understand? Nobody forces you to do anything, you always choose yourself.

    If your governed by the laws of nature that is not even a factor. Choosing to do things that are impossible like have children as a man, fly, and shoot fireballs can't happen. They are not even a choice so if you can't do them that doesn't mean you dont have freewill.

    Just remember that EVERYTHING you do is by choice, you can choose to do anything including murder but you have to deal with the consequences. That is what it means to have freewill.
    You're not addressing the argument for determinism. Since the brain is material and there's nothing beyond it (soul), it is a set machine. If I plug in a bunch of inputs, the brain machine is going to do some calculations and spit out some outputs. If I reverse time and put in the exact same inputs and the brain machine is the exact same, it is going to spit out the exact same outputs. What that translates into in reality is that every decesion we make (output) is really just a product of the inputs that our brain absorbed, and the material make-up of our brain. In theory an Omnipotent god could analyze a person's brain machine, study the inputs and predict with 100% accuracy what the outcome will be. Extending this argument even further, this omnipotent god could study all the inputs and every system in the universe, and predict exactly what is going to happen through all of eternity from the very first input.

    Imagine it like a Pooltable. An extremely good physicist can create a ball-shooting machine, put in some random variables concerning the speed of the first shoot, the angle of strike, the direction, and so on, and calculate from those variables what is going to happen on the pool table before the machine even hits the white ball. It is all merely a mathematically equation playing itself out.
    1) The creation of the world is the most marvelous achievement imaginable.
    2) The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic quality, and (b) the ability of its creator.
    3) The greater the disability (or handicap) of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.
    4) The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.
    5) Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of an existent creator we can conceive a greater being — namely, one who created everything while not existing.
    6) Therefore, God does not exist.


    Garbarsardar's love child, and the only child he loves. ^-^

  11. #11
    Roy Batty's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: To believe in freewill must we believe in the soul?

    Free will is an illusion. We are slaves to our own impulses. Example:

    You wake up and do twenty different things before going to work. Get in your car, drive and are killed by a speeding bus.

    Stop, rewind. Play.

    You wake up and do twenty different things before going to work. Get in your car, drive and are killed by a speeding bus.

    Unless there is a change from some outside source: i.e. Cronos turns back time and tells you if you don't do something different you'll be killed by so and so bus, you will not do anything differently. Why the hell would you?
    The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: To believe in freewill must we believe in the soul?

    Pretty much, the only way to logically believe in free will is to believe in a sort of soul - but that does not imply any form of substance dualism; idealism is pure soulstuff and a monistic theory. Though I was discussing this with Seneca at one point and posited a theory of a materialistic free will: Free will is limited - we decide based on possibilities, and the decisions made form neural interactions as well as being formed thereby; so while there is an element of determinism, a substantial element, we can have a materialist free will.

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    chris_uk_83's Avatar Physicist
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    Default Re: To believe in freewill must we believe in the soul?

    The argument against determinism goes that the brain (and everything else) on a fundamental level operates on quantum mechanical principles. The laws of quantum mechanics state two things: that it is impossible to know the exact initial conditions perfectly accurately (Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle) and that a system can exist in a combination of states (on and off for example) until it is observed. Upon observation the system is forced into one single state, and there is a probability it will end up either on or off, this is not predetermined.

    Einstein refused to believe this because he believed completely in determinism based on the laws of physics, he said "God does not play dice with the universe" in response to quantum mechanics becasue, in effect, this is what is happening.

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    Curtana's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: To believe in freewill must we believe in the soul?

    Surely quantum uncertainty cannot generate freewill because effectively, from our perspective on the macro scale, its outputs are random. Freewill generates different outputs depending on inputs and er.. freewill. The existence or non existence of Schroedinger's poor put upon cat and that bloody South American butterfly, chaos pisstakii, have nothing to do with it. QED.
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    Default Re: To believe in freewill must we believe in the soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by chris_uk_83 View Post
    The argument against determinism goes that the brain (and everything else) on a fundamental level operates on quantum mechanical principles. The laws of quantum mechanics state two things: that it is impossible to know the exact initial conditions perfectly accurately (Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle) and that a system can exist in a combination of states (on and off for example) until it is observed. Upon observation the system is forced into one single state, and there is a probability it will end up either on or off, this is not predetermined.

    Einstein refused to believe this because he believed completely in determinism based on the laws of physics, he said "God does not play dice with the universe" in response to quantum mechanics becasue, in effect, this is what is happening.
    As Ozy states we were discussing and the idea of the quantum nature of the universe was a good arguement against determinism however upon reflection I think not of free will. Since there is an inherent randomness in quantum behaviour randomness posited in a theory based on this cannot count as free will since this randomness is not controlled by the being in question.

    So a theory I am willing to accept is partial determinism, cultural and psychological determinism with elements of randomness.

    PUtting a soul into the issue is terribly illogical as there is nothing to actually base the existence of a soul on.

    Peter

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    Default Re: To believe in freewill must we believe in the soul?

    The argument against determinism goes that the brain (and everything else) on a fundamental level operates on quantum mechanical principles. The laws of quantum mechanics state two things: that it is impossible to know the exact initial conditions perfectly accurately (Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle) and that a system can exist in a combination of states (on and off for example) until it is observed. Upon observation the system is forced into one single state, and there is a probability it will end up either on or off, this is not predetermined.

    Einstein refused to believe this because he believed completely in determinism based on the laws of physics, he said "God does not play dice with the universe" in response to quantum mechanics becasue, in effect, this is what is happening.
    Wikipedia expands:
    [edit] Determinism, quantum mechanics and classical physics
    Since the beginning of the 20th century, quantum mechanics has revealed previously concealed aspects of events. Newtonian physics, taken in isolation rather than as an approximation to quantum mechanics, depicts a universe in which objects move in perfectly determinative ways. At human scale levels of interaction, Newtonian mechanics gives predictions that in many areas check out as completely perfectible, to the accuracy of measurement. Poorly designed and fabricated guns and ammunition scatter their shots rather widely around the center of a target, and better guns produce tighter patterns. Absolute knowledge of the forces accelerating a bullet should produce absolutely reliable predictions of its path, or so we thought. However, knowledge is never absolute in practice and the equations of Newtonian mechanics can exhibit sensitive dependence on initial conditions, meaning small errors in knowledge of initial conditions can result in arbitrarily large deviations from predicted behavior.

    At atomic scales the paths of objects can only be predicted in a probabilistic way. The paths may not be exactly specified in a full quantum description of the particles. Actually, path is a classical concept which quantum particles do not have to possess. The probability arises from when we measure the path of the particle which actually it does not have precisely. However, in some cases quantum particles have exact path, and the probability of finding the particles in that path is one. The quantum development is at least as predictable as the classical motion, but it describes wave functions that cannot easily be expressed in ordinary language. In double-slit experiments, electrons fired singly through a double-slit apparatus at a distant screen do not arrive at a single point, nor do they arrive in a scattered pattern analogous to bullets fired by a fixed gun at a distant target. Instead, they arrive in varying concentrations at widely separated points, and the distribution of their hits can be calculated reliably. In that sense the behavior of the electrons in this apparatus is deterministic, but there is no way to predict where in the resulting interference pattern an individual electron will make its contribution (see Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle).

    Some people have argued that in addition to the conditions humans can observe and the rules they can deduce there are hidden factors or hidden variables that determine absolutely in which order electrons reach the screen. They argue that the course of the universe is absolutely determined, but that humans are screened from knowledge of the determinative factors. So, they say, it only appears that things proceed in a merely probabilistically determinative way. Actually, they proceed in an absolutely determinative way. Although matters are still subject to some measure of dispute, quantum mechanics makes statistical predictions that would be violated if some local hidden variables existed. There have been a number of experiments to verify those predictions, and so far they do not appear to be violated although many physicists believe better experiments are needed to conclusively settle the question. (See Bell test experiments.) It is, however, possible to augment quantum mechanics with non-local hidden variables to achieve a deterministic theory that is in agreement with experiment. An example is the Bohm interpretation of quantum mechanics.

    On the macro scale it can matter very much whether a bullet arrives at a certain point at a certain time, as snipers and their victims are well aware; there are analogous quantum events that have macro- as well as quantum-level consequences. It is easy to contrive situations in which the arrival of an electron at a screen at a certain point and time would trigger one event and its arrival at another point would trigger an entirely different event. (See Schrödinger's cat.)

    Even before the laws of quantum mechanics were fully developed, the phenomenon of radioactivity posed a challenge to determinism. A gram of uranium-238, a commonly occurring radioactive substance, contains some 2.5 x 1021 atoms. By all tests known to science these atoms are identical and indistinguishable. Yet about 12600 times a second one of the atoms in that gram will decay, giving off an alpha particle. This decay does not depend on external stimulus and no extant theory of physics predicts when any given atom will decay, with realistically obtainable knowledge. The uranium found on earth is thought to have been synthesized during a supernova explosion that occurred roughly 5 billion years ago. For determinism to hold, every uranium atom must contain some internal "clock" that specifies the exact time it will decay. And somehow the laws of physics must specify exactly how those clocks were set as each uranium atom was formed during the supernova collapse.

    Exposure to alpha radiation can cause cancer. For this to happen, at some point a specific alpha particle must alter some chemical reaction in a cell in a way that results in a mutation. Since molecules are in constant thermal motion, the exact timing of the radioactive decay that produced the fatal alpha particle matters. If probabilistically determined events do have an impact on the macro events, such as whether a person who could have been historically important dies in youth of a cancer caused by a random mutation, then the course of history is not determined from the dawn of time.

    The time dependent Schrödinger equation gives the first time derivative of the quantum state. That is, it explicitly and uniquely predicts the development of the wave function with time.


    So quantum mechanics is deterministic, provided that one accepts the wave function itself as reality (rather than as probability of classical coordinates). Since we have no practical way of knowing the exact magnitudes, and especially the phases, in a full quantum mechanical description of the causes of an observable event, this turns out to be philosophically similar to the "hidden variable" doctrine.

    According to some, quantum mechanics is more strongly ordered than Classical Mechanics, because while Classical Mechanics is chaotic, quantum mechanics is not. For example, the classical problem of three bodies under a force such as gravity is not integrable, while the quantum mechanical three body problem is tractable and integrable, using the Faddeev Equations. That is, the quantum mechanical problem can always be solved to a given accuracy with a large enough computer of predetermined precision, while the classical problem may require arbitrarily high precision, depending on the details of the motion. This does not mean that quantum mechanics describes the world as more deterministic, unless one already considers the wave function to be the true reality. Even so, this does not get rid of the probabilities, because we can't do anything without using classical descriptions, but it assigns the probabilities to the classical approximation, rather than to the quantum reality.
    The QM aspect of determinism, although related, has little impact on free-will or social determinism.
    1) The creation of the world is the most marvelous achievement imaginable.
    2) The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic quality, and (b) the ability of its creator.
    3) The greater the disability (or handicap) of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.
    4) The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.
    5) Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of an existent creator we can conceive a greater being — namely, one who created everything while not existing.
    6) Therefore, God does not exist.


    Garbarsardar's love child, and the only child he loves. ^-^

  17. #17
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    Default Re: To believe in freewill must we believe in the soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by Curtana View Post
    Freewill has been discussed here before but not this specific question, I think. Plus it is probably safe to say the issue is not likely to be resolved and discussing it again causes no harm, right?

    Everything in the universe appears to conform to the laws of nature. Given that our brains are physical objects this must mean they too follow these laws. How can these brains generate freewill given that they have to follow specific pathways and laws? So freewill cannot exist.

    Alternatively some kind of inexplicable metaphysical entity exists within us, the soul, and this generates true freewill.

    This is the philosophical problem I wish to resolve. I cannot believe in the soul because its existence is unproven. I want to believe in freewill but cannot reason it into existence. Help me.
    Well, that is a good question. I think free will can exist without the existance of a 'soul' - I cannot belive in a soul, its existance is not proven, and probably never will be.
    I have been studying Artificial Intelligence at school, which I suppose is quite relevant to this discussion - after all we are talking about the brain being like a computer!
    My answer would be that yes we can have free will sans soul. If we look at the brain, it is a network of interconnected neurons, to put it very simply. Some computers operate in a similar manner. Computer AI, like the brain, has to make descisions based on rules and facts. A computer with AI can make its own descision based on the facts and rules we program into it. Same with the brain, it makes its desicions based on the rules and facts it knows. We know that action X will have harmful consequences, so we avoid it, using logic. Everything we know and are taught are part of the facts and rules we have, just like a computer knowledge base, we can make independant descisions
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    TheKwas's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: To believe in freewill must we believe in the soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
    just like a computer knowledge base, we can make independant descisions
    Those aren't independant decesions in the way 'Free willists' would define them. The decesions are direct products of the rules of our brain and the imputs. No one would say that my calculator has free will because it produces an outcome from the inputs I give and the rules that dictate it's programming.
    1) The creation of the world is the most marvelous achievement imaginable.
    2) The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic quality, and (b) the ability of its creator.
    3) The greater the disability (or handicap) of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.
    4) The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.
    5) Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of an existent creator we can conceive a greater being — namely, one who created everything while not existing.
    6) Therefore, God does not exist.


    Garbarsardar's love child, and the only child he loves. ^-^

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    chris_uk_83's Avatar Physicist
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    Default Re: To believe in freewill must we believe in the soul?

    True, existence of quantum mechanics doesn't actually prove free will, but it does go some way towards disproving absolute determinism.

    In all, I don't think free will is provable one way or the other unless you have a time machine. Even then you're interfering with events by going back in time to re-observe them. Hmmm.

    Gotta say, Seneca's got it nailed as far as I'm concerned.

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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: To believe in freewill must we believe in the soul?

    Only because Ozy walked me through the arguement weeks ago

    Peter

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