The Israeli-Palestinian Hypotheses

[sephodwyrm]

Why should this inter-ethnic problem be a world problem in the first place?

Again, using pointers instead of paragraphs, I first suggest thinking about:
1. The series of wars in Congo
2. Somalia
3. Sri Lanka
4. Tibet
5. Xinjiang

Then:
1. What if the Israeli-Palestinian Crisis is in Africa?
2. What if the Israeli-Palestinian Crisis is in South Asia?
3. What if the neighbors of this Crisis were all first rate modern democracies?
4. What if the neighbors of this Crisis were all third rate countries with no oil?

Then to conclude:
1. Why should the world exactly care for either side?
2. What if you were born a Palestinian, or an Israeli? Would you modify your current platform at all?
3. What if the positions were entirely switched (but the Holocaust still occurred)? Would you modify your current platform at all?

[enoch]

no, next question
do the palestinians pay you a stipend or something?

[sephodwyrm]

do the palestinians pay you a stipend or something?

No, but I hope they do.
But even if they do, I wouldn't have the heart to take that money.
Its more likely earned through weapon smuggling, and I don't support terrorism.
Either that, or 300 Palestinian kids have to skip lunch for it.

So unless you can give a meaningful thought about these question, you should learn to stop assuming that the Palestinians are dumb enough to pay me stipend. No one pays a Bachelors with a degree in Plant Genetics stipend. Heck, no one would even pay him salary.

[enoch]

No one pays a Bachelors with a degree in Plant Genetics stipend. Heck, no one would even pay him salary.

of course not, no such thing exists - and it ain't about where it is

it ain't about where they are geographically although that adds fuel
it is about history and the fact that Israelis are surrounded by enemies who seek their annihilation

you harp that the Israelis this and that and you don't even realize

the Israelis are really holding themselves back
we have seen what happens when you **** with Israel and it ain't pretty for the other side

the palestinians are doing everything they can to kill the israelis on the other hand

if Israel wanted to it could wipe the palestinians from the face of the earth tomorrow
If the Palestinians could do the same to Israel they already would have
AND THAT IS THE ONLY FACT THE MATTERS

wake up

[morteduzionism]

if Israel wanted to it could wipe the palestinians from the face of the earth tomorrow
If the Palestinians could do the same to Israel they already would have

That's why I say arm the Palestinians to a level equal to Israel...and let them resolve their own issues...

[Ma'ahes]

Well, technically-speaking, Israel is a liability to the US, and to the West in general, so I doubt it's location would change the importance of the conflict. Then again, I think Africa would have enjoyed the prosperity that Israel would have brought them....instead of blowing themselves up.

Also, do you know why all of those other conflicts aren't covered as much as Israel is? It's because, as the Palestinians (more importantly, Arafat) learned, terrorism pays. Civilians deaths all work in the favor of terrorists because the world's first reaction is to blame Israel. I guess an exception would be the Sri Lanka Tigers, but that's more likely due to the fact that that area is not considered a democracy--Israel is, and is put on some double standard (again, not entirely sure if Sri Lanka is democratic, so feel free to call me an idiot).

The world should care about the conflict. Why? One word....precedent. The minute that the Palestinians get every bit of what they ask for they set a precedent that terrorism, in the end, pays. Whether or not other groups take this message to heart is another thing, but the idea stays the same. Slippery slope...yeah, perhaps, but a realistic one.

As for the last two:

I'm Jewish, so I'm generally pro-Israel. However, I am critical of Israel's policies, although vehemently deny that Israel is an apartheid state (in fact, if you check, I'm quite a hater of Carter, lol). That said, what in the hell does the Holocaust have to do with this? Israel, contrary to the most popular theory, was not created simply out of WWII. Nevertheless, I believe in self-determination in the ME (so go Kurds!!!!). The Jews took their opportunity, while the Palestinians threw away their sizeable land proposal and helped attack Israel.

As a sidenote, I notice that many people bring up the whole: oh, well the Israeli's only bought the LAND, not the TREES. So wtf?! They planted more trees where there were none. Plus, the other argument that the Jews had no right to buy the land from absentee landlords in Jordan/Saudi Arabia/Random ME country. What ever you're smoking, I want some....

EDIT: How's THAT for some prose, hehe!

[pannonian]

Well, technically-speaking, Israel is a liability to the US, and to the West in general, so I doubt it's location would change the importance of the conflict. Then again, I think Africa would have enjoyed the prosperity that Israel would have brought them....instead of blowing themselves up.

Also, do you know why all of those other conflicts aren't covered as much as Israel is? It's because, as the Palestinians (more importantly, Arafat) learned, terrorism pays. Civilians deaths all work in the favor of terrorists because the world's first reaction is to blame Israel. I guess an exception would be the Sri Lanka Tigers, but that's more likely due to the fact that that area is not considered a democracy--Israel is, and is put on some double standard (again, not entirely sure if Sri Lanka is democratic, so feel free to call me an idiot).

The world should care about the conflict. Why? One word....precedent. The minute that the Palestinians get every bit of what they ask for they set a precedent that terrorism, in the end, pays. Whether or not other groups take this message to heart is another thing, but the idea stays the same. Slippery slope...yeah, perhaps, but a realistic one.

One could realistically argue that the proto-Israelis demonstrated that terrorism pays. If the Palestinian Jews hadn't kept bombing the British occupiers, the British would have stayed for as long as was necessary to get some kind of reasonable resolution to the conflicting interests of the peoples there. Instead, the British threw up their hands in disgust, asked themselves why the hell they were enduring bombing in that rocky hellhole (they weren't too fond of Palestine), and asked the UN to take over. It didn't help that just about everyone else, from the Americans to the Russians, were gloating at the predicament of the British in the dotage of their Empire, and were putting the boot in by smuggling in toys to help make the British's lives more "fun".

Israel is living proof that terrorism works, and can work to create a successful state.

[Crul]

Well if this crisis was somewhere else then it wouldn't get nearly as much attention as it does now, that is obvious. Look at Sri Lanka, Somalia, Congo, Sudan etc. They don't get nearly the same media coverage as the Isreal-Palestine crisis does.

Why? because it is in the interest of every oil consuming country (especially the biggest one) that the middle east doesn't fall of the precipice and into utter chaos

[sephodwyrm]

The minute that the Palestinians get every bit of what they ask for they set a precedent that terrorism

South Africans got rid of their Apartheid through terrorism.
Israel tentatively got their state through partial terrorist activities against colonial Britain.
And so did Algeria.

There's a tonne of precedents already.

I'm Jewish, so I'm generally pro-Israel.

Well, I'm Chinese, but I'm not generally pro-China.
Its not a very good reason to be pro-Israel or pro-anything to begin with.
What did you do exactly to make sure that you're Jewish?
Tentatively - NOTHING.

A Palestinian can also say that he's pro-Palestine because he's one.
And yes I do talk with Palestinians from time to time. Maybe its because they're in a US college, but they're not after the destruction of Israel. Maybe its different in Israel itself. But then again, I wonder how many do actually live in Israel?

[Ma'ahes]

Sepho, the terrorism by Israelis was not the cause of the creation of Israel...they were one of many groups all striving towards a creation of Israel, but it was nothing like what Palestine is doing.

Either way, my point was that you cannot give them everything they want.

South Africa? Good for them....equal rights does not compare to whining about land.

Algeria? Hrm, care to explain? Not much info about it, don't care to wiki.

EDIT: Oh, Crul, what are you talking about the ME turning into chaos? Do you mean w/o Israel, the lack of a scapegoat would result in mass carnage?

[sephodwyrm]

Sepho, the terrorism by Israelis was not the cause of the creation of Israel...they were one of many groups all striving towards a creation of Israel, but it was nothing like what Palestine is doing.

So what is the Palestinians doing?
Its not as if the Palestinians are 100% terrorists.
I suspect more than 90% of Palestinians are more worried about where the next meal come from than about being a terrorist.

Just think for a moment, what if the situation is completely reversed on you? I'd gather that you would want voices on your side.

And no I am not on the side of Palestinians per se. Because I don't believe in a state of Palestine nor the destruction of Israel, since I see Israel as the only power with the degree of education and resources to pull off a non-violent solution.

[Segestan]

<<<<As a sidenote, I notice that many people bring up the whole: oh, well the Israeli's only bought the LAND, not the TREES. So wtf?! They planted more trees where there were none. Plus, the other argument that the Jews had no right to buy the land from absentee landlords in Jordan/Saudi Arabia/Random ME country. What ever you're smoking, I want some....>>>>

Well actually the Zionist NEVER payed a dime for land in Palestine. The Sultan who legally at the time of the Zionist congress in 1896 refused to sell or give his blessings to the Zionist Colonist. The leaders of the Zionist Congress chose to move ahead anyways. That’s Not to say the Hebrews never held a historical nor religious heritage to the lands they did. In fact thier were already Jews living in the region before the Diaspora decided to remake Israel though in very small population towns. The whole region was virtually unpopulated desert. It was difficult for the Jews to raise the monies needed for resettlement until the Baron Rothschild of England along with others of influence made donations for the Zionist Movement.

[Ma'ahes]

<<<<As a sidenote, I notice that many people bring up the whole: oh, well the Israeli's only bought the LAND, not the TREES. So wtf?! They planted more trees where there were none. Plus, the other argument that the Jews had no right to buy the land from absentee landlords in Jordan/Saudi Arabia/Random ME country. What ever you're smoking, I want some....>>>>

Well actually the Zionist NEVER payed a dime for land in Palestine. The Sultan who legally at the time of the Zionist congress in 1896 refused to sell or give his blessings to the Zionist Colonist. The leaders of the Zionist Congress chose to move ahead anyways. That’s Not to say the Hebrews never held a historical nor religious heritage to the lands they did. In fact thier were already Jews living in the region before the Diaspora decided to remake Israel though in very small population towns. The whole region was virtually unpopulated desert. It was difficult for the Jews to raise the monies needed for resettlement until the Baron Rothschild of England along with others of influence made donations for the Zionist Movement.

Okay, lemme repeat....what are you smoking?!?! Yes, the Jews paid for land there...in fact, the original partition plan showed only parts of Israel that Jewish settlers had bought...and therefore lived on. Please show some proof showing how the Zionists suddenly took the land and squatted on it when they were heavily outnumbered and outgunned in Israel.

As for Israel being created out of terrorism....I'll just say no. It was more of a movement that had started before WWII, and was pushed forward to fruition after the war and the belief in self-determination. I'd love to post some examples, but alas I left all of my anti-Israel-bashing books at home . Seriously folks, Israel was not formed out of terrorism. Yes, there were a few terrorist attacks, but now are condemned by Israel itself. It wasn't formed on top of terrorism, period.

[pannonian]

As for Israel being created out of terrorism....I'll just say no. It was more of a movement that had started before WWII, and was pushed forward to fruition after the war and the belief in self-determination. I'd love to post some examples, but alas I left all of my anti-Israel-bashing books at home . Seriously folks, Israel was not formed out of terrorism. Yes, there were a few terrorist attacks, but now are condemned by Israel itself. It wasn't formed on top of terrorism, period.

Are you seriously suggesting the British would have withdrawn quite so abuptly if it hadn't been for the terrorists? Britain gladly handed over its Mandate in 1948 because we were tired of trying to keep a non-existent peace, in the process being shot at by all sides, but principally by the Palestinian Jews. Fun stuff like putting huge bombs under public cafes, torturing captured British soldiers to death then stringing their bodies up with booby traps in their insides, all helped us decide the hell we were getting wasn't worth the moral kudos of trying to keep the two sides from tearing each other's throats out.

I don't blame them for using those tactics - they had a goal, and they used the most effective tactics available to them to pursue that goal. But I wish people would stop pretending Israel is a lilly-white innocent free of any wrongdoing.

[Ma'ahes]

Again, please tell me where I can find this info, for I have not heard of this being done in a large-scale by Jews trying to establish Israel....I have heard of Islamic terrorists in the region doing things like that, but my knowledge of Jewish terrorism really only goes for a British embassy bombing (where ironically they sent a note to the embassy telling them that a bomb was gonna go off....).

Mostly, I'd say the creation of Israel was due to many things:
1.) self-determination. Europe was trying to carve up pretty much the world in this belief, and the creation of Israel was probably inevitable.
2.) Holocaust. Maybe not as powerful of a reason as some people think, but the sympathy vote is good to have.
3.) Jewish help during WWII. Yes, Jews formed militias to fight the Axis powers during the war, whilst most Muslim/Arabic nations helped out the Axis.
4.) The Zionist movement was pretty hell-bent on establishing Israel in Greater Palestine, so this was considered when trying to figure out where the state would eventually be.

[sephodwyrm]

Mostly, I'd say the creation of Israel was due to many things:
1.) self-determination. Europe was trying to carve up pretty much the world in this belief, and the creation of Israel was probably inevitable.
2.) Holocaust. Maybe not as powerful of a reason as some people think, but the sympathy vote is good to have.
3.) Jewish help during WWII. Yes, Jews formed militias to fight the Axis powers during the war, whilst most Muslim/Arabic nations helped out the Axis.
4.) The Zionist movement was pretty hell-bent on establishing Israel in Greater Palestine, so this was considered when trying to figure out where the state would eventually be.

Well, Palestinians have all these 4 as well, more or less.
Most Arabic nations were either semi-colonies or de-facto colonies under the Allied powers that surrendered to the Axis or stayed out during the war, or was invaded by the Allies to ensure that they don't turn the other side.

Balkan Muslims serve as a poor example.
You can say that the French, Belgians, Dutch, Finns, Easter Europeans all helped the Germans, and plus they were all nominally countries with a Christian majority. So why won't Israel attack them?

And yes yes I understand that Israel have the power to wipe out the Palestinians. But they won't do it because they are more humane than some of the <<Jewish but not Israeli>> members here. Humanist groups exist in Israel, and I in complete congruent agreement with them.

[pannonian]

Again, please tell me where I can find this info, for I have not heard of this being done in a large-scale by Jews trying to establish Israel....I have heard of Islamic terrorists in the region doing things like that, but my knowledge of Jewish terrorism really only goes for a British embassy bombing (where ironically they sent a note to the embassy telling them that a bomb was gonna go off....).

Mostly, I'd say the creation of Israel was due to many things:
1.) self-determination. Europe was trying to carve up pretty much the world in this belief, and the creation of Israel was probably inevitable.
2.) Holocaust. Maybe not as powerful of a reason as some people think, but the sympathy vote is good to have.
3.) Jewish help during WWII. Yes, Jews formed militias to fight the Axis powers during the war, whilst most Muslim/Arabic nations helped out the Axis.
4.) The Zionist movement was pretty hell-bent on establishing Israel in Greater Palestine, so this was considered when trying to figure out where the state would eventually be.

"Empire Wars - Palestine" contains interviews with some actors in that particular play. About the Hotel bombing - the phone call stated 30 minutes, the bomb was actually set to go after 20 minutes, and it took 10+ minutes to verify the call. Result? Nearly 100 dead, mostly civilian, as we were in the process of evacuation. Much the same happened in the Omagh bombing, where similarly inaccurate information was given, and guess what? We weren't too impressed with that either.

In your analysis of the creation of Israel, you've looked at the geo-political reasons, but you've failed to answer the question. Why did the British leave, knowing there was a mess left behind? We stuck to our political timetables elsewhere, carrying through the process of decolonisation. Why did we leave so suddenly from Palestine?

[Erik]

Mostly, I'd say the creation of Israel was due to many things:
1.) self-determination. Europe was trying to carve up pretty much the world in this belief, and the creation of Israel was probably inevitable.
2.) Holocaust. Maybe not as powerful of a reason as some people think, but the sympathy vote is good to have.
3.) Jewish help during WWII. Yes, Jews formed militias to fight the Axis powers during the war, whilst most Muslim/Arabic nations helped out the Axis.
4.) The Zionist movement was pretty hell-bent on establishing Israel in Greater Palestine, so this was considered when trying to figure out where the state would eventually be.

Those are all excuses.

The real reason why Britain created Israel is simple:
-Rid Britain from the Jews.

The Brits hates the Jews just as much as the Germans did, and they had to deal with loads of Jewish refugees because of WWII.
They just found a more effective way of ethnic cleansing than Hitlers death camps: a carrot instead of a stick.

Why Westerners STILL support Israel I don't know.
Probably because they got used to it.

[pannonian]

Those are all excuses.

The real reason why Britain created Israel is simple:
-Rid Britain from the Jews.

The Brits hates the Jews just as much as the Germans did, and they had to deal with loads of Jewish refugees because of WWII.
They just found a more effective way of ethnic cleansing than Hitlers death camps: a carrot instead of a stick.

Do you have any cites for this? I can imagine the other European countries doing it for that rationale, but Britain doing so is less likely, since we were the ones governing the place, and would have been the ones dealing with the violence that would result from any increases in immigration.

For anyone thinking of raising the Balfour declaration - read the details. We were promising everything to everyone who would help us in the war against the Ottomans, with all kinds of conditions attached to ensure we would always have an excuse for not keeping our promises. That was the British way, and that was why we were hated (if respected) in that region as devious, imperialist, backstabbing sobs. Israel inherited those qualities that allowed them to play off one power against another. Which is why it baffles me that stonefaced moralists want to disown the glorious heritage of those doublefaced but brilliant Israeli statesmen, by pretending that Israel is absolutely in the right, and has always been in the right. They have not been, and if they had tried to be, Israel would not be as prosperous and secure as it is today.

[Blau&Gruen]

Those are all excuses.
The real reason why Britain created Israel is simple:
-Rid Britain from the Jews.
The Brits ... had to deal with loads of Jewish refugees because of WWII.

The refugee and displaced persons problem certainly played a role but your first part of the argument is historically not correct. It is more so that British gouvernments had strong considerations against, because they were aware of the conflicts in sequel. The Brits gave up the mandat power for domestestic and foreign political reasons. The British Prime Minister at that time, Clement Attlee, came from Labour (1945-1951), btw.