Ze Engleesh 2.3

[Jarric]

I have a couple of questions about English units in LtC. Some of these questions might belong in a more general mod forum, but I thought Lusted might know the answers. Bug reports and future suggestions included.

Questions:
1. What's the point of DEKs and Billmen?
Sergeants take the brunt of cavalry charges, push rams when needed and can hold the line against infantry.
Swordsmen charges walls and do any heavy-duty anti-infantry work.
Knights do flanking, counter-charging, and harassing missile cavalry. Longbows just kill everything and can even act as sword infantry.
DEKs/Billmen have no shield, routinely take heavy losses post-charge, are cut to pieces by a cavalry charge unless they're stacked in column formation and are much too slow to flank effectively. How do you use them properly?

2. I have read FAUST, but would just like to reconfirm this. Do shields do any good in melee combat? I'm just wondering because a lot of the Late-era European cavalry seem to lack them. Heavily armored, yes, possibly faster, but without a shield, they seem to take more damage than, say, Hospitallers, or even English Knights.

3. Shouldn't English Knights have Good vs Armour? They're using axes, after all. Maybe lessen their charge so they're still inferior to Continental cavalry, in the interest of parity?

4. What's the trigger for a Swordsmith's Guild? I have castles building exclusively Barracks, Stables, and Armourers, but none of them are offered that Guild.

5. Sherwood Archers. I realise they were overpowered before (unchargeable with hide anywhere), but as they stand, they're annoying to refit and rearm, without that many benefits compared to Retinue Longbowmen.
Stronger pound for pound, sure, but the only place you can ever retrain them is always limited to one castle. So to get them anywhere, it often takes a decade, sailing through hostile waters, walking through hostile territory. Maybe give them back hide anywhere but raise the timer to 30 seconds?

Bug report
1. I'm still getting the experience bug. I would train or retrain a unit in a city/castle that should net them +Levels, but if I reload in the meantime, the exp bonus doesn't take, and I have to retrain them.

2. Mongol generals are referred to as Saracen generals when they die. Very minor bug, but hey, it's there.

Suggestions for 3.0
1. Not sure if this is possible. Have you ever played Europa Universalis? The campaign AI will actively sue for peace if they're losing a war, offering a commensurate amount of reparations. Vice versa if they're winning. The current campaign AI for M2TW still has a "death before surrender" mindset. 3000 men facing a single city filled with 500 militiamen and a king, and the king says it's Very Demanding if I ask them to surrender? This isn't Sengoku Jidai anymore!

Addendum: Make ceasefires binding for 5 turns and vassalages for 50 turns. Otherwise, they keep making and breaking them like crazy. It's not Total War as much as Total Annihilation then.

2. More use for Advanced Plate? I mean, +1 level for Swordsmen are nice and all, but that's about all an Armour Factory is good for.

Lest it sounds like I'm whining, I'm not. I'm loving this game, and LtC keeps getting better with every iteration. But improvement is never wrong, no?

[Lusted]

1. What's the point of DEKs and Billmen?
Sergeants take the brunt of cavalry charges, push rams when needed and can hold the line against infantry.
Swordsmen charges walls and do any heavy-duty anti-infantry work.
Knights do flanking, counter-charging, and harassing missile cavalry. Longbows just kill everything and can even act as sword infantry.
DEKs/Billmen have no shield, routinely take heavy losses post-charge, are cut to pieces by a cavalry charge unless they're stacked in column formation and are much too slow to flank effectively. How do you use them properly?

Shock infantry, they have very good charge and attack values.

2. I have read FAUST, but would just like to reconfirm this. Do shields do any good in melee combat? I'm just wondering because a lot of the Late-era European cavalry seem to lack them. Heavily armored, yes, possibly faster, but without a shield, they seem to take more damage than, say, Hospitallers, or even English Knights.

Yes shields are good in melee combat. The later heavily armoured knights are better on the charge than English Knights due to their heavier mounts.

3. Shouldn't English Knights have Good vs Armour? They're using axes, after all. Maybe lessen their charge so they're still inferior to Continental cavalry, in the interest of parity?

Their secondary weapon does have the ap attribute.

4. What's the trigger for a Swordsmith's Guild? I have castles building exclusively Barracks, Stables, and Armourers, but none of them are offered that Guild.

Train a ton of units armed with swords like FFK and AS and you should get the offer sooner or later if you have no guild in the castle.

5. Sherwood Archers. I realise they were overpowered before (unchargeable with hide anywhere), but as they stand, they're annoying to refit and rearm, without that many benefits compared to Retinue Longbowmen.
Stronger pound for pound, sure, but the only place you can ever retrain them is always limited to one castle. So to get them anywhere, it often takes a decade, sailing through hostile waters, walking through hostile territory. Maybe give them back hide anywhere but raise the timer to 30 seconds?

They're only a fun unit, they're not meant to be a mainstay of your armies, just a smaller more specialised unit.

1. I'm still getting the experience bug. I would train or retrain a unit in a city/castle that should net them +Levels, but if I reload in the meantime, the exp bonus doesn't take, and I have to retrain them.

2. Mongol generals are referred to as Saracen generals when they die. Very minor bug, but hey, it's there.

M2TW bugs.

1. Not sure if this is possible. Have you ever played Europa Universalis? The campaign AI will actively sue for peace if they're losing a war, offering a commensurate amount of reparations. Vice versa if they're winning. The current campaign AI for M2TW still has a "death before surrender" mindset. 3000 men facing a single city filled with 500 militiamen and a king, and the king says it's Very Demanding if I ask them to surrender? This isn't Sengoku Jidai anymore!

No but it is TW, where the whole point of the game is to take over the world. It ain't realistic, but it's the way the series is.

2. More use for Advanced Plate? I mean, +1 level for Swordsmen are nice and all, but that's about all an Armour Factory is good for.

Nope, it's meant to be a limited type of armour.

[Jarric]

Wow, your customer support is excellent, you know that? Since you're awake and aware, thought I'll throw a few more questions your way.

1. I edited this in after last post, but I guess after you answered.

Addendum: Make ceasefires binding for 5 turns and vassalages for 50 turns. Otherwise, they keep making and breaking them like crazy. It's not Total War as much as Total Annihilation then.

For the player's sake. Just so we can take a few turns to go back to a castle, rearm and refit.

2. DEKs/Billmen: So frontal charge, then right away pull them back behind your main infantry line?

3. Cavalry: So those armored horses like in Late General's Bodyguards actually mean something? Better def vs arrows, heavier charge?

4. Sherwood Archers: Shame. I was hoping to use them like a Medieval version of Special Forces. Harassment and assassinations. They are the English unique unit, like Janissaries and Gothic Knights and whatnot. But I understand they're unbalanced.

TIA, man.

[Lusted]

Addendum: Make ceasefires binding for 5 turns and vassalages for 50 turns. Otherwise, they keep making and breaking them like crazy. It's not Total War as much as Total Annihilation then.

For the player's sake. Just so we can take a few turns to go back to a castle, rearm and refit.

The ai is already set up to not attack for a certain period after making a ceasefire, and no im not making the ai not break vassal status as i know i'd betray it in less than 50 turns.

2. DEKs/Billmen: So frontal charge, then right away pull them back behind your main infantry line?

More a case of frontal charge with the rest of your infantry in support, the added shock value of the DEK/Billmen will help tip the battle in your favour.

3. Cavalry: So those armored horses like in Late General's Bodyguards actually mean something? Better def vs arrows, heavier charge?

Yup, they're heavier so provide more mass in the charge, and mass is all important in the charge.

4. Sherwood Archers: Shame. I was hoping to use them like a Medieval version of Special Forces. Harassment and assassinations. They are the English unique unit, like Janissaries and Gothic Knights and whatnot. But I understand they're unbalanced.

Well actually the English get quite a few unique units like Billmen, Heavy Billmen, Longbowmen, Yeoman Archers, Retinue Longbowmen.

[Jarric]

no im not making the ai not break vassal status as i know i'd betray it in less than 50 turns

Whatever happened to honor? To chivalry? To not paying half your income to an occupying force...oh, I see your point now.

Well, here's hoping that future versions of the TW series give you all that information (mass etc.) up front instead of deep in the text files. Oh, and bringing back the pretty line drawings from MTW would be nice too.

Thanks for all the help. You rock!

[Queen Annes Revenge]

i'm confused lusted, what exactly does the attribute 'mass' refer to? is it a value in the edu that's hidden in the game?

[Lusted]

i'm confused lusted, what exactly does the attribute 'mass' refer to? is it a value in the edu that's hidden in the game?

Well there is both collision mass for a unit in the edu, and the mount mass in the descr_mount file. The more mass a muont has, the more devestating the charge is. Also the more collision mass a unit has, the better it resists cav charges.