Did Jesus abolish the Law?

[Kiki52]

Hi
I have heard both sides of the argument as to whether Jesus abolished the Law (the 613 Jewish laws) and the 10 commandments when he died on the cross. Some say he did, others say he didn't.

One theory I heard is that Jesus abolished the law. In the days of the New Testament, the Bible says a woman accused of committing adultery was going to be stoned because that was what Moses said should be done. However, Jesus said "Let those without sin cast the first stone" and then all the others dropped their stoned and went away without punishing her according to Jewish law. Then Jesus, because he is sinless, he said "Go and sin no more" but he did not stone her to death even though he had no sin and he said that only the sinless can cast a stone.
My interpretation is that he broke the law of the Jews by not punishing an adultering woman with death, but let her go free without any form of punishment except for saying she should not do it anymore.

Jesus also broke the law when he disobeyed the law of the Sabbath. He healed a man on the Sabbath, and to work on the Sabbath in those days was to be put to death.

However, others say Jesus did not come to abolish the law because other verses he says something similar to "Do not think I have come to abolish the law, not one dot in the letter I will go" or something to that matter. He also when he was speaking to the Jewish Pharisees, Jesus accused them of not enforcing the commandment "Thou Shalt Honor Thy Father and Mother" because supposedly Jesus thought the Pharisees let children disobey/dishonor their parents if it suit them right. Jesus said the children should be stoned if they disrespect their parents, as commanded by Moses in the Old Testament.

However, I am confused. Why did Jesus repeatedly break the law by not obeying the Sabbath and not stoning the adultering woman, yet he supported it by blaming the Pharisees for not stoning disobediant children? Do you think the Bible has been tampered with, because something does not add up. Sometimes the Bible seemingly says contradictory statements.

[David Deas]

From a historical standpoint, there has long since been a recognition in scholar land that Jesus' own religion was different from the religions about Jesus. IOW, Jesus was not a Christian, he was not a Muslim, nor did he practice Judaism.

That single fact alone is responsible for most of the *major* contradictions in the Bible. When you read Jesus' teachings and compare them closely to what the rest of the Bible teaches, plenty of red flags should fly. His entire feel is different from the much darker feel of the Old Testament.


(*) Prepare for people to question authenticity. Especially when it comes to Jesus forgiving the adulterer.

[Blau&Gruen]

Hi
I have heard both sides of the argument as to whether Jesus abolished the Law (the 613 Jewish laws) and the 10 commandments when he died on the cross. Some say he did, others say he didn't.

It is so that not all orthodox jews accept other jews as jewish when they do not practize the "laws" as strict than they do. Afaik, christians hold the ten commandments but these are ethical/moral regulations. So, it is hard to compare the two. The jewish and the christian consciousness about these things are rather different. The idea that the "law" could or needs to be abolished is neither christian, nor jewish. The "law" belongs for jews to the "eternal convenant". It is what consitutes the people and the religion. What "eternal" and "convenant" means are some very basic friction points between the two religions. Sometimes in history they have been closer and sometiems they have been much farer away. You can say over the the thumb, if you do not follow the rules of either of the two religions, you can not take part actively in the cultus. Sounds, very conservative but so it is. - Ask Oldgamer and Boofhead.

[boofhead]

Jesus stated he did not come to abolish the Jewish law, not one little bit. There are the "customary" laws and the "moral" laws, there is a distinction. The customary laws still applied to the Jews if they sought salvation. The moral laws apply to Christians and Jews.

[Blau&Gruen]

Abolish, isn't correct, - ok. Though, you use another term.

[boofhead]

"I came to fulfill.....not to (abolish/do away with/destroy)...." AFAIK.

[Blau&Gruen]

It is hard to know what the teachings of the man from Nazareth contained. Some suppose it was a rather strict halaka. The point is that when christians think about such things their point of view is the resurrected christ, that makes their perspective different from any possible jewish perspective.
If you like to abstract the issue you can say, it is not really the "law" but the concept of time. As Boofhead has said the fulfíllment of the "law" and of the "history". Early christians believed that the essentials of the history of god and man had been fulfilled in their time. Christians have never entirely left that idea. Jewish perspectives interpret the relation as an obligation of the "law" due "history". The jewish "kairos" (greek time, kairos vs chronos; Bultman and Kaeseman) holds through the time as "brit olam" (hebrew for eternal convenant), the christian's takes places in time with the resurrected christ. It could well be that it is not really usefull to abstract these iusses too much.

[GershomPatmos]

Hi
I have heard both sides of the argument as to whether Jesus abolished the Law (the 613 Jewish laws) and the 10 commandments when he died on the cross. Some say he did, others say he didn't.
...
However, I am confused. Why did Jesus repeatedly break the law by not obeying the Sabbath and not stoning the adultering woman, yet he supported it by blaming the Pharisees for not stoning disobediant children? Do you think the Bible has been tampered with, because something does not add up. Sometimes the Bible seemingly says contradictory statements.

I agree somewhat with some others have said. It is a matter of halakha (walking out the scriptures). Y'shua didn't break the Sabbath...I would contend against that notion. He may have broke the oral traditions at times of the sages/Rabbis...but I would say only when they came in contradiction to God's commands. Plus...don't you wonder why it was only the woman who was brought to be stoned and not the other also who was caught in the act of adultery? Or do you think she was committing it with herself?

I believe in what it says in the scriptures on this area though:

[Romans 3:31] Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Paul himself said it...Jesus did it. I think a good study on "law" (Greek is "nomos" and is used in LXX for "Torah" - so most uses in NT are assumed to be same as Hebrew "Torah") might help also to understand what it is.

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THE TORAH?

Listed below are seven purposes for God's Torah. They are as follows:

1. Teaches and reveals the Divine nature of God
   a) God is Holy (Leviticus 19:2).
   b) God is Love (I John 4:7-8). ·
   c) God is Gracious, Righteous, Merciful (Psalm 116:5)
   d) God is Light (I John 1:5).
   
2. Teaches and reveals sin (Romans 3:20, Galations 3:10, James 2:10, I John 3:4)
   
3. Teaches and reveals man's need to have a Messiah (Romans 10:4)
   ----> "End" in Greek means "Goal/Target"
   
4. Teaches and reveals God's redemptive plan through the Messiah (Psalm 40:6-7, Hebrews 10:5-7, Luke 24:36, 44)
   
5. Teaches and reveals that man is saved by God's grace according to faith and not by the deeds of the law (Romans 3:20, 24, 28, Galations 2:16, Ephesians 2:8-9)
   
6. Teaches and reveals the difference between the life of the Spirit (the Torah written upon a heart of flesh) and the life of the flesh (the Torah written upon a heart of stone) (Romans 8:1-3, 5-9)
   
7. Teaches us how to grow from spiritual babies to spiritual maturity (Genesis 17:1, Psalm 19:7-8, Psalm 119:l-2, Ephesians 4:11-15, Hebrews 5:12-14)

quoted from: here

The etymology of Torah and the significance of words to the Hebrew:

The Torah explicates the importance of each word by focusing on the divine command to Noah: “Go into the tevah [the ark] with your household.” (Gen 7:1) The Hebrew word tevah not only means “ark,” but it also means “word.” Thus a student of the Torah is prompted to “go into the word,” the sacred task of discovering hidden meanings enfolded into each tevah. To further expand this notion, the rabbis taught that “those who carried the ark that contained the holy words were actually carried by the ark.” (Ex. Rabbah 36.4)
...
It is the responsibility of every Jew, be he a rabbi, teacher or student, to discover the 70 faces and the hidden labyrinths of the sacred word, prompted by the admonition: “Turn it again and again, for everything is in it; contemplate it, grow gray and old over it, and swerve not from it, for there is no greater good.” (Mishnah Avot 2.17)
Source: JNW

To the Jew - God gave every letter, word, vowel, "jot and tittle" to man to be studied within His Word. We know that the Word of God is personified as Jesus Christ, and thus even by those standards - we should place great importance on the Word. So let's get down to the etymology of the word "Torah".

"Torah" (תּוֹרָה) consists of four Hebrew letters:
tav (תּ) - the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet, but first of the word "torah"
vav (ו) - used as a v/o/u
reish (ֹרָ) - the "r"
hei (ה) - the "h"
source: jewfaq
okay...I'll come back to the letters later (I couldn't find many resources to talk about all 4 letters...but I did at least list them - or what I believe they are).

The rest is from various sources I will try to quote only partially (from the source that is):

Let us start by looking at the Etymology of the Hebrew word Torah so that we may better understand its true definition. The word Torah comes from the Hebrew root word "Yarah", a verb which means "to flow or throw something". This can be a flowing of an arrow from an archers bow, or the flowing of a finger to point out a direction. Nouns are derived from the verb by making one or two changes to the verb root. In this case the Y (yud) is replaced by an O (vav) and an M (mem) is added at the front of the word to form the noun "Moreh". A Moreh is "one who does the flowing". This can be an archer who flows an arrow, or a teacher who flows his finger to point out way the student is to go in the walk of life. Another noun is formed the same way except that a T (tav) is placed at the front of the word instead of an M and we have the word "Torah". Torah is "what is flowed by the Moreh". This can be the arrow from the archer or the teachings and instructions from the teacher.

source: Refiner's Fire

For a more visual look at how words and word-trees work, especially the word "torah", please click: here - you'll be able to see a pictography of the actual Hebrew letters and how they come together to form the word.

You'll begin to understand that...

Tôrâh then derives from a root verb which has more to do with 'hand' led instruction than 'rod' following legalism. It means:

• 'instruction' as from a parent to a child (Proverbs 1:8; 3:1; 4:2; 7:2).
• 'doctrine/instruction' via the prophets (Isaiah 1:10; 8:16,20; 42:4,21)
• 'legal instruction' as in the 'law of sacrifice' (Leviticus 6:7; 7:7)
• 'the Pentateuch/Mosaic revelation' (Joshua 1:8)

source: jewishsf

And also when studying words and scripture, it's important to remember a rule of "first use" which is often used to understand the meaning and uses of Hebrew words. I'll turn to the immediately above source once again:

Regarding the last definition, it cannot exclusively mean 'The Law' as its first use predates the Law and is used of Abraham's obedience to God's revelation:

"...And all the nations of the earth shall be blessed because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my torah." (Genesis 26:4-5)

So Abraham was renowned and the world blessed not because of mere 'faith' but, in agreement with the early rabbis and the apostle James, because of his obedience to God's torah. Torah is not just law and faith involved action and obedience.

It was also broader than 'a Law' for Jews only as its second use in the Bible says that there was "one torah" (Exodus 12:49) for the Israelite and for the stranger in their midst.

Both taken from: Studylight forums.
I better be off for now.

later,
Gersh

[Zechariah14]

However, I am confused. Why did Jesus repeatedly break the law by not obeying the Sabbath and not stoning the adultering woman, yet he supported it by blaming the Pharisees for not stoning disobediant children? Do you think the Bible has been tampered with, because something does not add up. Sometimes the Bible seemingly says contradictory statements.

1. No eyewitnesses would testify against the adulterous woman, and in terms of another Torah concept, equal weights and measures, the other violator (the man) was not also charged with adultery.

2. Healing on Sabbath was an issue that was still being debated hundreds of years later.

I.18

A. Said R. Zutra b. Tobiah said Rab, “In the case of an eye that got out of order, it is

permitted to paint it on the Sabbath.”
B. People supposed that that rule applied when the medicine had been ground on the
prior day, but if it was necessary to grind the medicine on the Sabbath and
carry it on the public domain, it would not be permitted. However, said one
of the rabbis, named R. Jacob, “To me personally did R. Judah explain that
even grinding the medicine on the Sabbath and even carrying it through
public domain are permitted.”
I.19

A. R. Judah permitted painting the eye on the Sabbath. Said R. Samuel

bar Judah to them, “Anyone who pays attention to Judah profanes the
Sabbath.” It turned out that he had some eye trouble. He sent word
to R. Judah, “Is healing on the Sabbath permitted or forbidden?”
B.

He replied, “To everybody else it is permitted, but to you it is

forbidden.”
C.

“But was it on my own account that I made that statement? It derived

from Mar Samuel. Mar Samuel had an inflamed eye on the Sabbath;
she cried but no one paid any attention to her, so her eye dropped. On
the next day, Mar Samuel went out and expounded: “In the case of an
eye that got out of order, it is permitted to paint it on the Sabbath.
D. “What is the operative consideration? Eyesight [Mishcon:] is

connected with the mental faculties.”

[Thanatos]

Of course he didn't! Who came up with that?!

"Behold I come not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it."

That sure don't sound like destruction of the law to me!

[enoch]

yes

[Blau&Gruen]

yes

Kabbalah, Madonna. Invent yourself new. Baptize the salad before you eat it.

[Blau&Gruen]

yes

My joke above is not related to the initial poster of this thread. Sometimes it comes me to mind that there was a lyric I prefered over others. That has been Ironic by Alanis Morissette, Madonna is not my type even if Hung Up is rather funny.

Ironic
An old man turned ninety-eight
He won the lottery and died the next day
It's a black fly in your Chardonnay
It's a death row pardon two minutes too late
Isn't it ironic ... don't you think
Chorus

It's like rain on your wedding day
It's a free ride when you've already paid
It's the good advice that you just didn't take
Who would've thought ... it figures

Mr. Play It Safe was afraid to fly
He packed his suitcase and kissed his kids good-bye
He waited his whole damn life to take that flight
And as the plane crashed down he thought
'Well isn't this nice...'
And isn't it ironic ... don't you think
Repeat Chorus


Well life has a funny way of sneaking up on you
When you think everything's okay and everything's going right
And life has a funny way of helping you out when
You think everything's gone wrong and everything blows up
In your face

It's a traffic jam when you're already late
It's a no-smoking sign on your cigarette break
It's like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife
It's meeting the man of my dreams
And then meeting his beautiful wife
And isn't it ironic... don't you think
A little too ironic... and yeah I really do think...
Repeat Chorus


Life has a funny way of sneaking up on you
Life has a funny, funny way of helping you out
Helping you out

[Ummon]

http://www.infoplease.com/dictionary/contextualize

con•tex•tu•al•ize

Pronunciation: (kun-teks'chOO-u-līz"), [key]
—v.t., -ized, -iz•ing.
to put (a linguistic element, an action, etc.) in a context, esp. one that is characteristic or appropriate, as for purposes of study. Also, esp. Brit.,con•tex'tu•al•ise".

[boofhead]

Just a slight spam - this Xian appreciates this Jewish thought.

The dietary laws and other such physicalritualistic observances are not necessary for the Christian (or at least for most). Nor animal sacrifices, chants, mantras, dressings or robes, or anything but the heart of the believer.

A man may after all act out all the required physical rituals and observances but at night slaughter and rape to the knowledge of nobody but himself.

Or, to be less dramatic, just be an absolute hypocrite.

I do not (I hope) slander the beliefs and traditions of the Jewish people by saying such a thing, but rather the ability of the average man to comply with said rituals and also observe the moral laws simultaneously, all of us being sinners. And what of the gentile who knew nothing of the Law? What hope had he and was he not G-d's creation, and beloved also?

The Christians were the first to say abandon your traditional/dietary/customary needs if it will result in good work for G-d, i.e communication, inter-faith, conversion, community.

Jesus said circumcision was not the physical act, but that the circumcision of the heart was enough.

Deep words, and as helpful back then as they are now.

[Blau&Gruen]

You are right. Though, I think a certain distance to your own heritage is rather reasonable and can beware you of falling into the believe you are the center of the universe, a selfcritical view onto yourself must not go so far that you change into something else, or as the poster Naptown has said in another context, that you morph into another being. Religion as an identity game looks then rather strange to me and causes in my heart steady silent smiles. Madonna is for me again the medial incarnation of that late coming new age show. Adaptions, where you have to give up your sane mind at the gate, sadden my heart the more.

[mocker]

What if there were TWO Jesus?

[Blau&Gruen]

What if there were TWO Jesus?

Good, you must have read the Wiki article before me.
Moshiach ben Yossef (Messiah son of Joseph), like Jacob/Israel or the Ebed in Isaiah (the suffering messiah)
Moshiach ben David (Messiah son of David), like king David (the ruling messiah)

[Thanatos]

TWO...? Oh, you mean the number two? I thought you were referring to an abbreviation or something.

Nope. Only one Son.

[Blau&Gruen]

TWO...? Oh, you mean the number two? I thought you were referring to an abbreviation or something.

Nope. Only one Son.

That is christian, huios theou.
I hope you have a sense for double sense.