Page 1 of 22 1234567891011 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 465

Thread: Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

    From the Times today

    The hardback God Delusion was hailed as the surprise bestseller of 2006. While it was warmly received by most of the 1,000-plus individuals who volunteered personal reviews to Amazon, paid print reviewers gave less uniform approval. Cynics might invoke unimaginative literary editors: it has “God” in the title, so send it to a known faith-head. That would be too cynical, however. Several critics began with the ominous phrase, “I’m an atheist, BUT . . .” So here is my brief rebuttal to criticisms originating from this “belief in belief” school.

    I’m an atheist, but I wish to dissociate myself from your shrill, strident, intemperate, intolerant, ranting language.

    Objectively judged, the language of The God Delusion is less shrill than we regularly hear from political commentators or from theatre, art, book or restaurant critics. The illusion of intemperance flows from the unspoken convention that faith is uniquely privileged: off limits to attack. In a criticism of religion, even clarity ceases to be a virtue and begins to sound like aggressive hostility.

    A politician may attack an opponent scathingly across the floor of the House and earn plaudits for his robust pugnacity. But let a soberly reasoning critic of religion employ what would, in other contexts, sound merely direct or forthright, and it will be described as a shrill rant. My nearest approach to stridency was my account of God as “the most unpleasant character in all fiction”. I don’t know how well I succeeded, but my intention was closer to humorous broadside than shrill polemic. Restaurant critics are notoriously scathing, but are seldom dismissed as shrill or intolerant. A restaurant might seem a trivial target compared to God. But restaurateurs and chefs have feelings to hurt and livelihoods to lose, whereas “blasphemy is a victimless crime”.

    You can’t criticise religion without detailed study of learned books on theology.

    If, as one self-consciously intellectual critic wished, I had expounded the epistemological differences between Aquinas and Duns Scotus, Eriugena on subjectivity, Rahner on grace or Moltmann on hope (as he vainly hoped I would), my book would have been more than a surprise bestseller, it would have been a miracle. I would happily have forgone bestsellerdom had there been the slightest hope of Duns Scotus illuminating my central question: does God exist? But I need engage only those few theologians who at least acknowledge the question, rather than blithely assuming God as a premise. For the rest, I cannot better the “Courtier’s Reply” on P. Z. Myers’s splendid Pharyngula website, where he takes me to task for outing the Emperor’s nudity while ignoring learned tomes on ruffled pantaloons and silken underwear. Most Christians happily disavow Baal and the Flying Spaghetti Monster without reference to monographs of Baalian exegesis or Pastafarian theology.

    You ignore the best of religion and instead . . . “you attack crude, rabble-rousing chancers like Ted Haggard, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, rather than facing up to sophisticated theologians like Bonhoeffer or the Archbishop of Canterbury.”

    If subtle, nuanced religion predominated, the world would be a better place and I would have written a different book. The melancholy truth is that decent, understated religion is numerically negligible. Most believers echo Robertson, Falwell or Haggard, Osama bin Laden or Ayatollah Khomeini. These are not straw men. The world needs to face them, and my book does so.

    You’re preaching to the choir. What’s the point?
    The nonbelieving choir is much bigger than people think, and it desperately needs encouragement to come out. Judging by the thanks that showered my North American book tour, my articulation of hitherto closeted thoughts is heard as a kind of liberation. The atheist choir, moreover, is too ready to observe society’s convention of according special respect to faith, and it goes along with society’s lamentable habit of labelling small children with the religion of their parents. You’d never speak of a “Marxist child” or a “monetarist child”. So why give religion a free pass to indoctrinate helpless children? There is no such thing as a Christian child: only a child of Christian parents.

    You’re as much a fundamentalist as those you criticise.

    No, please, do not mistake passion, which can change its mind, for fundamentalism, which never will. Passion for passion, an evangelical Christian and I may be evenly matched. But we are not equally fundamentalist. The true scientist, however passionately he may “believe”, in evolution for example, knows exactly what would change his mind: evidence! The fundamentalist knows that nothing will.

    I’m an atheist, but people need religion.

    “What are you going to put in its place? How are you going to fill the need, or comfort the bereaved?”

    What patronising condescension! “You and I are too intelligent and well educated to need religion. But ordinary people, hoi polloi, Orwellian proles, Huxleian Deltas and Epsilons need religion.” In any case, the universe doesn’t owe us comfort, and the fact that a belief is comforting doesn’t make it true. The God Delusion doesn’t set out to be comforting, but at least it is not a placebo. I am pleased that the opening lines of my own Unweaving the Rainbow have been used to give solace at funerals.

    When asked whether she believed in God, Golda Meir said: “I believe in the Jewish people, and the Jewish people believe in God.” I recently heard a prize specimen of I’m-an-atheist-buttery quote this and then substitute his own version: “I believe in people, and people believe in God.” I too believe in people. I believe that, given proper encouragement to think, and given the best information available, people will courageously cast aside celestial comfort blankets and lead intellectually fulfilled, emotionally liberated lives.
    Last edited by Denny Crane!; May 12, 2007 at 02:51 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

    You’re as much a fundamentalist as those you criticise.

    No, please, do not mistake passion, which can change its mind, for fundamentalism, which never will. Passion for passion, an evangelical Christian and I may be evenly matched. But we are not equally fundamentalist. The true scientist, however passionately he may “believe”, in evolution for example, knows exactly what would change his mind: evidence! The fundamentalist knows that nothing will.
    Its sad that the 'true Christian', by colloquial definition, is an individual who's mind can never be changed, while the so called 'fake Christians' are merely those Christians intelligent enough to question.
    Last edited by David Deas; May 12, 2007 at 03:47 PM.
    Sponsored by the Last Roman

  3. #3

    Default Re: Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

    all I can say as Ive said a thousand times--- You CANNOT JUDGE religion with science neither has anything to do with the other--- secondly your ability to change your mind is no greater than a person who is willing to ask questions and is of faith--- either case both the christian and the atheist are completely wrong and completely self-absorbed and self-important, this is not an insult just a statement of fact.. you dont know anything , keep science with science and religion with religion--- no great awakening awaits us at the end of either road-- there is no Liberation of mind when you choose to limit your mind to the possibility of god--if you were a slave to the idea of god you will be a slave to the non-idea either way your still a drone.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaigidel View Post
    all I can say as Ive said a thousand times--- You CANNOT JUDGE religion with science neither has anything to do with the other
    Dawkins does an excellent job of analysing the belief in "God" with reason, not "science". Are you going to tell us religion has "nothing to do" with reason? That would be ... interesting.
    --- secondly your ability to change your mind is no greater than a person who is willing to ask questions and is of faith---
    Great. Except most religions are structured in such a way that faith can't be questioned. Which makes it intrinsically irrational.

    either case both the christian and the atheist are completely wrong and completely self-absorbed and self-important, this is not an insult just a statement of fact..
    That "statement of fact" is the most bizarre thing I've read all day (though it is quite early in the morning where I am. Care to elaborate on how it's a self-evident "statement of fact" that atheists are "completely wrong"? Then you can move on to "completely self-absorbed and self-important". These supposed "statements of fact" are less than evident to me, so perhaps you need to detail them, rather than just proclaim them.

    Over to you.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

    To say that religion cannot be scientifically tested is another way of saying fundamentalism is right.

    Isn't it at least possible for religion to be wrong?
    Sponsored by the Last Roman

  6. #6

    Default Re: Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

    of course deas i think all religion is horrible wrong--- but it cannot be looked at as a scientific problem because by its very nature it is irrational.

    and to say religion cannot be with science and vice versa means one should never be brought in to affect the other--- the idea of "god" should have nothing to do with our scientific ethics and the choices we make based on the facts we have

    just as science has no place dictating to something that is a personal very personal belief and somethinig that does not need to hear from science to provide its benefit of peace of mind to the participants

    i just want people to seperate them and keep them both

  7. #7
    Zacheria's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Minnesota, United States of America
    Posts
    127

    Default Re: Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

    Science can't really be seperated from religion, because science has given us facts to the rise of humanity, which directly challange holy texts. Scientests very well can't ignore there findings if they go aganst church scripture.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

    bah--- ignore the bible thats not the issue the issue is god or no god atheism or theism---at no point does science and religion intersect-- save in mystery cults and various cults throughout history like the pythagoreans

    science has given us facts about evolution too--- im not talking about anything except god or no god

    god cannot be understood scientifically nor does it necessarily exist scientifically but thats because science DOESNT CARE because science isnt making judgements its recording observation

    you think god doesnt exist just because it doesnt fit your mental image of what a god should be doing or how it should be acting-- this makes no sense i hope you can tell

    this is like saying that life cannot exist without sunlight-- just because we have seen mostly life that exists from sunlight and the foodchain on-- but we now know that things dont move the way we think they do... so to say that there is NO god according to science is basically a lie because science does not address the questions of god

    god is a personal and subjective thing--- perhaps it will be more real when we die perhaps not.. either way

    if you are incapable of seperating a book from the concept of god then that is your loss. because they are not the same thing --- you must expand your understanding of god rather than limiting it because what you thought was true wasnt-- nor should you limit it based upon a system designed to tell you things about how it works (however good it does do that)

    you should not limit your understanding based on a loss of confidence in a given system of understanding. or in a over-confidence of another.
    Last edited by Chaigidel; May 12, 2007 at 05:39 PM.

  9. #9
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    If, as one self-consciously intellectual critic wished, I had expounded the epistemological differences between Aquinas and Duns Scotus, Eriugena on subjectivity, Rahner on grace or Moltmann on hope (as he vainly hoped I would), my book would have been more than a surprise bestseller, it would have been a miracle. I would happily have forgone bestsellerdom had there been the slightest hope of Duns Scotus illuminating my central question: does God exist? But I need engage only those few theologians who at least acknowledge the question, rather than blithely assuming God as a premise. For the rest, I cannot better the “Courtier’s Reply” on P. Z. Myers’s splendid Pharyngula website, where he takes me to task for outing the Emperor’s nudity while ignoring learned tomes on ruffled pantaloons and silken underwear. Most Christians happily disavow Baal and the Flying Spaghetti Monster without reference to monographs of Baalian exegesis or Pastafarian theology.
    This was quite interesting alluding to a few topics I haven't come across yet.

    Peter

  10. #10

    Default Re: Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    This was quite interesting alluding to a few topics I haven't come across yet.
    Several reviews took him to task for being theologically ignorant. Dawkins actually isn't theologically ignorant and, if the reviewers had been paying attention, he says in the book that he doesn't need to wander around the endless maze of theology anymore than someone critiquing the Flying Spaghetti Monster needs to take Pastafarianism seriously. Theology assumes that God exists. Dawkins was working outside that assumption. So those critics are accusing him of being "ignorant" of something that was actually totally outside the relevant scope of his book.

    Duns Scotus was a late Thirteenth Century medieval theologian who was one of the most influential and subtle scholastic philosophers. Later philosophers who turned against the scholastic attempt at underpinning theology with logic held him up for ridicule as an example of that school of philosophical thought and so his name gives us the word "dunce". I challenge anyone to read his works on metaphysics and call him a "dunce" though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaigidel View Post
    actually yes thiu im going to tell you exactly that religion has nothing to do with reason or rationality or sanity.
    Whereas, let me guess, your brand of pseudo-mysticism isn't "religion" so is immune to Dawkins' analysis, right?

    [I agree faiths are structured so they cant be questioned thats just survival of a social organism-- but these faiths are shadows of the truth ...
    Which is what?

    ... and meant to be passed over into true understanding of god(which im sure not many reach)
    And how is this "true understanding of god" reached?

    so to say the game of religion is that you must look past it you must question it and you must explore it with truth in your heart otherwise you will never have any faith.
    How?

    my statement of fact--- your completely wrong because you both assume your completely right,
    Totally wrong, I assume nothing of the sort. Neither does Dawkins. You haven't even read his book, have you?

    by self absorbed and self important im sure its clear with theists but with atheists it comes from the "liberation" mentioned earlier the feeling as if religion was a yoke upon your weary shoulders ..
    Wrong again. So much for "statements of fact".

    its strange to me that atheism seems to be primarily anti christian-- thats probably because christians yell the loudest about the literal interpretations of the bible i think --either way it makes no sense to me
    Atheism is nothing of the sort.

    a world without god will not be better it will just be the same thing with different names--- people will always find reasons for atrocity so to argue the world would be better without religion is silly too -- all of course in my opinion
    Glad to hear you've backed away from asinine claims to "statement of fact". Yes, people probably will find other reasons for atrocities. But religion (and that includes your woolly "non-religion"/mysticism) is uniquely disposed towards irrationality, which is always a bad thing.
    Last edited by ThiudareiksGunthigg; May 12, 2007 at 06:28 PM.

  11. #11
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiudareiksGunthigg View Post
    Several reviews took him to task for being theologically ignorant. Dawkins actually isn't theologically ignorant and, if the reviewers had been paying attention, he says in the book that he doesn't need to wander around the endless maze of theology anymore than someone critiquing the Flying Spaghetti Monster needs to take Pastafarianism seriously. Theology assumes that God exists. Dawkins was working outside that assumption. So those critics are accusing of being "ignorant" of something that was actually totally outside the relevant scope of his book.

    Duns Scotus was a late Thirteenth Century medieval theologian who was one of the most influential and subtle scholastic philosophers. Later philosophers who turned against the scholastic attempt at underpinning theology with logic held him up for ridicule as an example of that school of philosophical thought and so his name gives us the word "dunce". I challenge anyone to read his works on metaphysics and call him a "dunce" though.

    Well this is the first time I've come across him so thank you I'll make a note to do some reading.

    Peter

  12. #12

    Default Re: Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

    actually yes thiu im going to tell you exactly that religion has nothing to do with reason or rationality or sanity.

    I agree faiths are structured so they cant be questioned thats just survival of a social organism-- but these faiths are shadows of the truth and meant to be passed over into true understanding of god(which im sure not many reach)so to say the game of religion is that you must look past it you must question it and you must explore it with truth in your heart otherwise you will never have any faith.

    my statement of fact--- your completely wrong because you both assume your completely right, by self absorbed and self important im sure its clear with theists but with atheists it comes from the "liberation" mentioned earlier the feeling as if religion was a yoke upon your weary shoulders ..


    its strange to me that atheism seems to be primarily anti christian-- thats probably because christians yell the loudest about the literal interpretations of the bible i think --either way it makes no sense to me

    a world without god will not be better it will just be the same thing with different names--- people will always find reasons for atrocity so to argue the world would be better without religion is silly too -- all of course in my opinion
    Last edited by Chaigidel; May 12, 2007 at 05:51 PM.

  13. #13
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaigidel View Post
    actually yes thiu im going to tell you exactly that religion has nothing to do with reason or rationality or sanity.

    I agree faiths are structured so they cant be questioned thats just survival of a social organism-- but these faiths are shadows of the truth and meant to be passed over into true understanding of god(which im sure not many reach)so to say the game of religion is that you must look past it you must question it and you must explore it with truth in your heart otherwise you will never have any faith.

    my statement of fact--- your completely wrong because you both assume your completely right, by self absorbed and self important im sure its clear with theists but with atheists it comes from the "liberation" mentioned earlier the feeling as if religion was a yoke upon your weary shoulders ..
    So your arguement boils down to Religion is right because....!

    Peter

  14. #14

    Default Re: Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

    I didnt say religion is right ever not once--- I just dont think your right either

  15. #15
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    19,146

    Default Re: Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins

    Clinton Richard Dawkins (born March 26, 1941) is a British ethologist, evolutionary biologist, and popular science writer who holds the Charles Simonyi Chair for the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University.
    This is it. Dawkins' biography.

    What has this man discovered? Nothing.

    What has this man won? Nothing.

    Famous for his polemics with religion. Well, that's easier than many.

  16. #16
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins



    This is it. Dawkins' biography.

    What has this man discovered? Nothing.

    What has this man won? Nothing.

    Famous for his polemics with religion. Well, that's easier than many.
    Whats your point Ummon, the man has written a good book that has fired a few imaginations and got people thinking.

    Peter

  17. #17

    Default Re: Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins

    This is it. Dawkins' biography.

    What has this man discovered? Nothing.

    What has this man won? Nothing.

    Famous for his polemics with religion. Well, that's easier than many.
    What pompous twaddle. The guy is a leading authority on biological evolution and has "discovered" quite a few things in that field, if you'd bothered to pay attention. He also come up with the idea of "memes", thus founding the whole area of memetics. And he's "won" a chair at Oxford University, honorary doctorates from the University of Westminster, the University of Durham, the University of Hull, the University of St Andrews the Australian National University and the Universiteit Brussel. Then he's a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature and the Royal Society, and a recipient of the Royal Society of Literature Award, the Los Angeles Times Literary Prize, the Zoological Society of London Silver Medal , the Michael Faraday Award, the Nakayama Prize, the Humanist of the Year Award, the International Cosmos Prize, Kistler Prize, the Medal of the Presidency of the Italian Republic, the Shakespeare Prize, the Galaxy British Book Awards Author of the Year for 2007 and the Bicentennial Kelvin Medal of The Royal Philosophical Society of Glasgow.

    Some "nothing".

    What have you "discovered" or "won" lately? Do tell.

    Alternatively, please bloviate elsewhere.

  18. #18
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    19,146

    Default Re: Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiudareiksGunthigg View Post
    What pompous twaddle. The guy is a leading authority on biological evolution and has "discovered" quite a few things in that field, if you'd bothered to pay attention. He also come up with the idea of "memes", thus founding the whole area of memetics. And he's "won" a chair at Oxford University, honorary doctorates from the University of Westminster, the University of Durham, the University of Hull, the University of St Andrews the Australian National University and the Universiteit Brussel. Then he's a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature and the Royal Society, and a recipient of the Royal Society of Literature Award, the Los Angeles Times Literary Prize, the Zoological Society of London Silver Medal , the Michael Faraday Award, the Nakayama Prize, the Humanist of the Year Award, the International Cosmos Prize, Kistler Prize, the Medal of the Presidency of the Italian Republic, the Shakespeare Prize, the Galaxy British Book Awards Author of the Year for 2007 and the Bicentennial Kelvin Medal of The Royal Philosophical Society of Glasgow.

    Some "nothing".

    What have you "discovered" or "won" lately? Do tell.

    Alternatively, please bloviate elsewhere.
    Now, that is an impressive list, which I accept as correction of mine. I though know very well a lot of people who have, for sure, more credentials than he has, though they do not feel the need to wage epistemologically incorrect crusades against metaphysical concepts which are by definition unprovable and unrefutable.

    The concept of meme, hyped on about as it is, is probably the most recycled, less relevant idea one might find in the current scientific panorama.

    Now as to my credentials, you can rest assured that I won't post them, as I value my anonimity more than your opinion. On the other hand, you see, whether you consider me a trustworthy source or not, the fact remains that basic concepts of epistemology make what Dawkins says irrelevant.

    He may like or dislike whatever he wants, and so do you. But this is in no refutation or confirmation of religion, faith, and any other metaphysical belief. Whether you and your Dawkins friend, like it or not.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    Now, that is an impressive list, which I accept as correction of mine.
    It's taken directly from the link you posted, which you clearly didn't even bother to read.
    I though know very well a lot of people who have, for sure, more credentials than he has ...
    How wonderful. And big deal. You've still had to back down from your erroneous honking noises about how he's achieved "nothing". As I've said before, less empty pomposity and more substance would make your posts less of a weary waste of time for everybody.


    ... though they do not feel the need to wage epistemologically incorrect crusades against metaphysical concepts which are by definition unprovable and unrefutable.
    That sort of airy claim that theism is immune to any form of rational analysis is something Dawkins tackles very ably in his book. Which you've clearly never read.

    The concept of meme, hyped on about as it is, is probably the most recycled, less relevant idea one might find in the current scientific panorama.
    It's not a scientific concept. More flatulence.
    Now as to my credentials, you can rest assured that I won't post them, as I value my anonimity more than your opinion.
    How convenient. I'd hazard a guess you don't hold a chair at Oxford.

    On the other hand, you see, whether you consider me a trustworthy source or not, the fact remains that basic concepts of epistemology make what Dawkins says irrelevant.
    Garbage. Theism is entirely open to rational critique and Dawkins is as qualified to do the job as anyone else. More than most, actually. Perhaps you should actually read his book before wasting our time and yours posting more empty hand-waving on something you obviously know zero about.

  20. #20
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    19,146

    Default Re: Richard Dawkins comments on criticisms.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiudareiksGunthigg View Post
    It's taken directly from the link you posted, which you clearly didn't even bother to read.
    We can all be rash, that happens. Good to hear that little Dawkins has his share of satisfactions, that doesn't make him any more a good scientist.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiudareiksGunthigg View Post
    How wonderful. And big deal. You've still had to back down from your erroneous honking noises about how he's achieved "nothing". As I've said before, less empty pomposity and more substance would make your posts less of a weary waste of time for everybody.

    That sort of airy claim that theism is immune to any form of rational analysis is something Dawkins tackles very ably in his book. Which you've clearly never read.

    It's not a scientific concept. More flatulence.

    How convenient. I'd hazard a guess you don't hold a chair at Oxford.

    Garbage. Theism is entirely open to rational critique and Dawkins is as qualified to do the job as anyone else. More than most, actually. Perhaps you should actually read his book before wasting our time and yours posting more empty hand-waving on something you obviously know zero about.
    You don't understand. Your flames and nervousness, are irrelevant. Theism is indeed beyond scientific criticism, not beyond rational criticism, which infact can be exerted by logical arguments.

    Since the only argument Dawkins uses is: "God is not necessary for science therefore he doesn't exist" (a scientific argument against a metaphysical one) there is nothing to discuss. As that is logically, a null.

    You want to believe? Cool! You don't want to? Don't, by all means! But to say that your personal opinions start in my religion (to paraphrase Wong) that is intolerant, bigoted, and narcissistic, just as Dawkins is, beyond his rhetorics.

    Because I myself will say: God is not necessary for science. Thus?

    Said this: your scatologic language and offensive comments should be sanctioned. Sadly, you are an atheist. I am not sure your posts will be moderated severely.
    Last edited by Ummon; May 12, 2007 at 07:34 PM.

Page 1 of 22 1234567891011 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •