Selflessness: Impossible perfection?

**Silver Guard** · May 10, 2007, 03:40 PM

I'm sure everyone here has the capability to be nice
But I'm sure everyone also can look back and see how what they did was realy to benifit themselves, for the reputation, to hook a girl, the money, the popularity, that warm mushy feeling of doing something nice, the gratitude.

Some even do it for the simple reason that their beliefs tell them to, and they'll dine with a thousand virgins in heaven if they do so.

Is selflessness impossible? Or are humans capable of being truly selfless?

**David Deas** · May 10, 2007, 03:42 PM

Isn't there a spectrum here? I mean, how long could a completely selfless person last? The equivalent time a human being could go without food and water?

**Chaigidel** · May 10, 2007, 03:43 PM

a concept that developed from civilization no doubt-- selflessness is good for a people but not for a person.---- I think its possible in people but only in rare ones.

mostly its for the reasons you stated though admittedly

@deas i suppose its possible because of religious society since they provide for monks ---who in turn in some cases provide some service to the community-- while possessing nothing of their own

**Silver Guard** · May 10, 2007, 04:00 PM

However, they are in service of "God" who gives them a place in heaven and gives them the feeling that they are doing good, which is a good feeling in itself.

No not mistake selflessness for lack of matirial needs. A millionaire can still be more selfless then a beggar.

**Chaigidel** · May 10, 2007, 04:02 PM

most devoted people of faith that I know--- that aint many -- dont really have any sense of great reward for doing-- they just know its what they need to do, is that the result of enviroment or genes I dont know

but I do think some people do things without promise of reward in their mind god or otherwise.-- not often i must say

good point on selflessness and lack of needs

**Silver Guard** · May 10, 2007, 04:05 PM

Lack of needs is NOT selflessness. Surrender of wants for the needs of others is selflessness, and thats very different.
Monks do have a great reward, heaven, where can they possibly go wrong with that? They 'need' to do what God tells them too, and God has a lot of reward/punishment systems up his sleeve to keep them in line.

**Thanatos** · May 10, 2007, 09:50 PM

It is impossible to be totally selfless, due to our imperfect nature which has been tainted by sin, and always will be until Christ's Second Coming.

However, there is no reason to not strive to such a goal. We should be perfect, just as our Father in heaven is perfect, for such is the duty of the elect.

**Darth Wong** · May 11, 2007, 12:11 AM

The question is not whether total selflessness is impossible, it's whether it's even desirable. It's a totally absurd standard. There is nothing wrong with looking after one's own interests, as long as you don't do it at the expense of harming others.

**Rhinosaur** · May 11, 2007, 01:21 AM

Empathy can cause people to act selflessly as well. There doesn't need to be any other motive for kindness other than that you can see that someone else is in need of something and you can provide it. Complete selflessness seems a little more than I can give, but people are willing to give even their lives for something they believe is worth it, even atheistic people, so them doing it for the kick ass party waiting for them in heaven is not the issue. It's probably some evolutionary development or Pavlovian reaction that causes us to feel good about doing good for others, but that I'm not cynical enough to believe thats the only reason to be charitable. We also have conscious thought, and can decide that it's better to help those in need than not.

Here's a related question: Is the Golden Rule inherently selfish?

"Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you."

Meaning, is that the only reason you should treat people well, because you want that kind of treatment in return?

**MoROmeTe** · May 11, 2007, 04:19 AM

It is certainly impossible for one to be totally selfless. The only place where one could be perfectly, absolutely selfless and "get away with it" is a perfect world where everybody else, without exception, is selfless. And in such a word the difference between selfless and selfish would not be even applicable, as all one's needs and desires would be satisfied by others as he satisfies the wishes and needs of the others.

In the imperfect and lunar world we live in any act that others perceive as being selfless is actually a well disguised selfish act. Let's say I dedicate my life to helping others and that I give every bit of energy and resource I have towards this goal. It appears selfless of me, yet it is selfish as I gain a lot from my endeavor, from my serenity and happiness drawn from the help I provide and the respect and help other shall offer me. So I act in a manner consistent with being selfless and, at the same time, I am being selfish.

That is not to say that one cannot act selfish and benefit others around him. As Darth noticed the goal is not to do everything for the other man, but to do everything for yourself while not doing a perceivable and clear wrong onto the others. That is why society and state exist, in a sense, to regulate the way we selfishly relate to one another without doing harm.

**Curtana** · May 11, 2007, 05:33 AM

Selflessness evolved to serve the interests of the individual. Dying for the tribe helped the survival of shared genes being carried by other individuals within the tribe.
Given this reality these days true selflessness makes no logical sense unless it is on behalf of siblings or offspring.
That said us realists get a bad rap. Even though philosophy tells me morality and society are dead I still choose to act in a moral fashion. Why?
Firstly because, in truth, I am unable to override my evolutionary programming. Secondly because the individual still benefits from living in a functioning society with laws, pensions...and doughnuts.

**Khosson** · May 13, 2007, 08:20 AM

I do'nt think it is imposible,just verry verry hard to reach.
But i do'nt think it is perfect either.
And it is a really slipery term.I mean only the person who acts in a certain way could say that he/she is acting selfless.I hope i'm understood.
Selflesness dose not always mean you do god.A dictator could only care for the benefit of his people yet still have a negative influence.

**Khosson** · May 16, 2007, 01:03 PM

Do not worry thread...I will keep you alive.Sorry for the double post but i just can't wait till someone disagres with me(the dictator thingy).

**Count of Montesano** · May 16, 2007, 01:27 PM

Is a certain level of selflessness attainable - absolutely, just look at many parents. Sure, they're passing on their genes but they make great sacrifices to provide for their children. People willing to die for their beliefs or to protect friends and family are also completely selfless.

The problem comes when you're so engrossed in helping others that you can't take care of yourself - or you have such self-loathing that your selflessness is really passive-aggressive martyrdom.