Bible commands you MUST obey ALL government?

[Kiki52]

I know that Paul in Romans says that you must obey government, and submit to them. Even if they are bad, or oppressive, you must obey and submit to them. If you rebel against them you are rebelling against God. He also said to never bad mouth the government ever. Not even if they do harm to you.

The only exception where you can disobey the government is if the government asks YOU to disobey God (i.e. they ask you to worship Satan). And even then, you cannot badmouth them even if they ask you to worship Satan, because all governments no matter what deserve your respect even if you must 'disobey' them to keep God's commandments. Even if the government asks you to worship Satan, and to kill kids, Paul says you can only peacefully protest by getting yourself killed or thrown in jail because Christians or whomever obeys God's laws must always submit and RESPECT governmental authority.

Paul says this because he said ALL governments come from God. Yes, even Hitler, Stalin, and other bad men who are from government are ALL ordained and comes from God.

I have questions about this. Theoretically, Paul would say to the Jews living in Nazi Germany that they are GOING AGAINST THEIR GOD because they chose to REBEL against Hitler, who is the government in Nazi Germay. Because the Jews are rebelling by forming armed militia to fight against the Nazis who are committing genocide on them, Paul would say that those Jews who are defending themselves that since they are rebelling against the governmental authority above them, the Nazis, they are rebelling against God. Paul would be saying to the Jews living in Nazi Germany had NO RIGHT to defend themselves against the Nazis who put them in gas chambers to die. Most Jews went along and died in gas chambers, but a few chose to form armed resistance groups similar to some movies about WWII I watched.

Paul also mentioned that you should fear the government if your evil. So under that logic of thinking, if the Nazis arrested thousands of Jews, Paul would conclude that the reason the Nazis are prosecuting the Jews is because those whom the Nazis are prosecuting are those who are evil.

Do you see how Paul's message can be used for bad purposes by bad men like Hitler?

I've heard some people say God uses governments like the Nazis, or the Babylonians, or the Romans to punish the Jews for their disobedience. God actually made Hitler do these things, so as to suit his higher purpose. Hitler was just a pawn of God. That idea may be anti-semitic, but some people I heard believe in that.

Therefore, can we conclude Paul in the Bible is saying that if the government does anything to you, like oppress you, commit genocide on you, steal from you, overtax you, etc it is ALWAYS ok for them to do that because ALL government comes from God, and to rebel against it means you rebel against God?

Do you think Paul is wrong?

Adolf Hitler used Paul's teachings in Romans to justify his form of bad government to the Christians at that time in Nazi Germany. Also, this teaching was also used by the Americans loyal to the British during the American Revolutionary War to try to tell the Americans they must submit to the British, because God said so.

[Chaigidel]

perhaps it was a way to preserve a then flegdeling religion-- so dont make too many waves and the faith can grow if you all go speaking out you will just be killed off.

[Skyler]

Kiki52,

That just shows how wrong Paullie was, and contradicting too.

All goverments are made up of people and if those ordinairy humans do things (terrible things) that people are unlikely to accept then they should not obbey their goverment. Criticizing one's goverment is healthy and rebelling can sometimes be neccecairy.

Afterall Paul was merely a man of ancient times who met some other guy named Jesus, a passive aggesive ancient politically consious self proclaimed messiah, son of god amongst other self proclaimed messiahes who convinced Paullie of his divinity by dying on a cross for our sins.

The guilt he must have felt (Paul). So much so that he wrote a bestseller gospel in his name which ellevated Jesus even more into divinity and why is that true? simple, because he said so, err actually he wrote so.

My point being is that I simply do not trust nor believe ancient men that lived in the middle eastern part of this world much and as in such I disregard most of their wise words as utter nonsence most of the time (99,9%).

His writings on goverments of his time may have been justifiable back in his days but have no room in the future. Standplaats gebondenheid (I do not know the English words for this but I means ''point of view in the timeline you live in'').

Take my post with a grain of salt as you also should with other written stuff conceived by man.

[Thanatos]

You must obey the rules the government has set down, unless they conflict with the moralistic laws of God, particularly, the Ten Commandments.

[Farnan]

Yea, you must take those writings in context.

It is pretty clear that what Paul was doing was distancing Christianity from the Jewish Revolts that were happening at the time and trying to prevent the Roman Empire from believing that Christians planned their overthrow.

Also, Jesus claimed the second most important commandment was to love thy neighbor as you love thyself. Thus any government that hurt your neighbor (neighbor means anyone but you) was disobeying God's Will. Thus that proclamation did not mean anything but a way to keep Christians from revolting when Christianity was too weak.

[Thanatos]

"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and give to God what is God's."

I think that pretty much sums it up.

[Turbo]

"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and give to God what is God's."

I think that pretty much sums it up.

It does. Good post.

[Tom Paine]

"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and give to God what is God's."

I think that pretty much sums it up.

Except it hardly draws a precise clear and understandable line to follow.

[Lord Bohemond]

The current American democracy solves that problem. The people ARE the rulers of the country, it is perfectly acceptable to overthrow a government leader who is overstepping his authority.

[enoch]

jesus as an anarchist

helping the poor

libertarian jesus

read this

[Holger Danske]

None actually, as most of the laws are acient, dating before the 10 commands.

[Darth Wong]

If you think that's bad, read on. Paul also says that slaves should obey their masters. We can't have people rising up against slavery, can we?

[Dunecat]

If you think that's bad, read on. Paul also says that slaves should obey their masters. We can't have people rising up against slavery, can we?

Out of context, much?

*edit*- 777 posts. Hoorah. -_-

[RZZZA]

All I've ever heard is what Jesus said.... "render unto caesar" or the full quote:

"“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”"

Jesus said this in response to a question about wether jews should pay taxes to caesar. I interpret this to mean that if you live in a society made civil by government, you should pay for the things you enjoy using i.e. taxes. Theres also something about giving 10% of your earnings to the church but maybe that could have been giving to helps others in general.

[Thanatos]

Look, all Jesus was trying to say was that unless the law conflicts with God's commandmants/standard morality, there is nothing wrong with the law.

Of course, laws taken to extremes, even if they aren't mentioned in the Talmud or the Ten Commandments, are still evil. (Such as usury, or being a barrator.)

[RZZZA]

I guess so...but in context, there was the added dynamic of jews chafing under roman rule, not WANTING to render unto caesar what is caesars. Wanting to remain autonomous.

I think in the modern world this phrase has quite a different meaning, its come to justify the idea of taxes in a way hasnt it?


edit: anyway, read the wiki on "render unto caesar". The roman coins had blasphemy on them, Tiberius was depicted as the son of God.

[Farnan]

It talks about giving 10% to charity, not as a command but as a suggestion. Its says give it to God, which means use it to fufill God's will. It also tells farmers to give a portion of their crops to the poor, along with any edible food unfit for sale.

But yea RZZZA is right about the give to Caesar what is Caesar's.

Also, Darth Wong Paul also urges slave owners to set their slaves free if they are able. The reason he urges slaves not to rebel is that doing so would make Christianity considered dangerous to the Romans and prevent its spread. Spreading Christianity at that time was more important than futile attempts to change society's structures (at the time of Paul Christianity probably didn't have more than a few thousand converts at most and at the time the converts were among the subdued non-Roman people).

[Thanatos]

Well, the thing is that you can interpret a lot of things however the way you want it to.

People are people, man. What can you do?

[Farnan]

What was happening when you take things in context is that some people were trying to claim that Christians were attempting to overthrow the Roman Empire and thus must be persecuted. Paul knew that for the survival of Christianity they must attempt to fight that idea, thus his statements.

The Bible must be read in context, else you get problems with translation of ideas.

[Thanatos]

Not only that, but it also teaches you to accept your lot in life. Those who serve well, will be rewarded well eventually, no matter how long it takes.