One thing that I feel has been missed!

[Daelyn75]

This is one of the things that ruin the game for me and that would be the free unit upkeep that the Mongols and the Timurids receive with their units, or should I say their invasion units which are their top units.

I knew it would be a problem, but it only affected one of my games to the point where I gave up and started a new one. I was playing spain, it was about LTC 1.2 or 1.3 some few months back and I noticed I needed Jerusalem in the middle east. It was about the year 1300-1320 as the Mongols had had about 100 turns in the game. I knew I had a fight on my hands, so for a long while I had built up 3 full stacks of my best units, no gunpowder or anything I don't think but I decided to take out the Egyption areas first then move on to Jerusalem.

What I found was that all of Egypt and the near entire middle east was Mongol control, so be it, I still went on with the invasion, I took 2 cities in Egypt, and the first ten turns there were somewhat what I expected, as it wasn't too difficult. Each turn I started noticing more and more Mongol stacks of various sizes, but by 20 turns I had noticed more then the equivilant of 10 stacks just where I could see in the Egyption area! Beyond that, more and more where coming, of good Mongol units, some were their Militia that they recruited in the game map but the vast majority were not!

I started taking losses I couldn't easily replace and by turn 30 they were ejecting me from the Egyption cities and I could do nothing, even though I was winning 95% of the battles, by turn 35 I was finished and the invasion was over.

Now I had played a whole campaign to finish as the Turks and through 100+ turns I eventually eradicated the Mongols, but that was through massive assassination uses, and with my force whittling them down from their entry into the game.

If you are not so lucky to start from the other side of the map to wear them down from the beggining then its not so easy to do it after they have established themselves. I find it somewhat game breaking and silly to let the Mongols and the Timurids to be able to do this in the game.

I actually edited the game by myself so that this no longer happens. What I did was let them keep their original units (Their elite invadeding ones) free of upkeep but I disallowed them to be able to build these units in their cities that they take. Instead I allowed them to build their militia units and a few of their dismounted units that they were allowed to build with upkeep in Vanilla and basically this mod as well, but all their invading free upkeep units I spawned copies of them in the export_descr_unit, changed their names to have ME (Middle East) in front of the copies names, and then added in an upkeep, and I downed their stats of the new units by a couple so that they wouldn't have their Elites anymore and just lesser copies that they can recruit in their conquered lands, which I believe to be more realistic that their new recruits are not as good as their older experienced ones from their homelands. I went into the export_descr_buildings and only allowed them to recruit these new units.

I have found the Mongols to be more managable now, instead of a super crazy war which drags on for half the game, they are more like a super threat until their invasion units are disposed of then their lesser units are on par with what you can field against them. IMHO it greatly improves the game play.

[Arjuna]

I'm quite interested in fighting the Mongols in 2.3, as Spearmen seem to rock even the heaviest cavalry now. I bet it's going to be fun defending settlements against them now.

[Lusted]

Well the Timurids are meant to be tough, both they and the Mongols will keep their free upkeep units.

[Daelyn75]

The modifications I did work well, the Mongols and Timurids come into the map with a lot of money, their starting units are free of upkeep, just the ones they build require upkeep. The for some reason keep their original names, but you can now tell which ones are built in the settlements because they now have an upkeep attached to them.

I don't think its a balanced game where unless your playing in the middle east the entire eastern part of the map becomes Mongol because if you think about it, creating these great units that the Mongols can build with no upkeep means a constant steamroller of uber units with nothing to check their size of their army, its un-realistic and definitely game breaking.

I'm not sure how anyone would want to keep this in their game. Why would you want to turn the game into beat the Mongols or beat the Timurids? Because thats all it would be otherwise.

How it works with my mod is the Mongols would come in, expand into many provinces and set themselves up as another power in the game, not the owning power of the east which if you let the game play out will be the owning power of the entire game map vrs the AI with unlimited no upkeep units.

[Arjuna]

Well the Timurids are meant to be tough, both they and the Mongols will keep their free upkeep units.

The fact that they appear in multiple full-stacks of elite, triple-silver-chevroned armies with 10 star generals and 9-10 Dread ratings is all they need.

That being said, I'm looking forward to their new invasion because of the way Spearmen now handle cavalry.

[Pygmalion]

Yea, i agree. That is something that needs to be taken care of.
No point in fighting hordes of mongol/timurid armies.
In some of my games, they eradicated the Turks and Egypt, and even moved to northern africa and fought against the moors and sicily. Thats just ridiculous.
They didnt really acquire new home towns in RL and kept recruiting soldiers. They just swept through the damn place to europe, and not africa.
They shouldnt be able to conquer settlements, but just raid captured ones (like the barbarians in BI).

This would be perfect. So everyone would still fear them, since the raided settlements are completely destroyed afterwards, and they keep moving to into your homeland.
Its just not fun anymore to move to turkey/egypt, and all you fight are hordes of uber-elite units, with 10 command star generals...

[Lightzy]

I generally agree.

It would make for a more fun game if it wasn't always the same game. you play play play, then mongols invade and ALWAYS destroy egypt/turkey and so on, and then ALWAYS it becomes a you-vs-mongol super-empire game.
Then the timruids invade and more of same..

I guess I want to sometimes fight egypt or turkey in the late game, rather than always the mongols

[Daelyn75]

Well I uploaded these two files to this site so that you can download it if you wish. I think the games will play out much better now with these modifications.

The unit file: This adds a clone of the Mongol and Timurid unique units and then adds upkeep to them. They are only for the units built by Mongol and Timurids, this in no way affects their initial invading units which have no upkeep. Also it adds the second level of ships to their fleets instead of all "Dhow", which is the "War Galley" but still no gun-powder ships. I was just always irritated to see whole fleets of Dhows when the Mongols gain ports. This being in the 1300s and beyond seemed silly to me that they were still using the beggining ships class that was 300 years old.

This file requires the building file to work otherwise nothing will have changed.

The building file: This is the second file needed so that the buildings of the Mongol/Timurids point to the new units so that they can no longer build units free of upkeep.

The only other change done was of a personal one in which I felt that the blacksmithing buildings were too expensive and took too long to build for something which would just be one small building which just adds better armor, money is tight in game and I felt that I was constantly avoiding building these buildings because I either wanted money making buildings, upgrades of buildings to build better troops, happiness, or new walls for the settlements, which leaves the expensive (up to 10K at higher levels) smith buildings in last place.

I cut the cost to half and reduced build time by 1-4 turns, more turns have been cut down the higher tier the building.

This file will not work if the unit file is not also downloaded and replaced.

Just download and replace in the C:\Program Files\SEGA\Medieval II Total War\landstoconquer\data

[notger]

I always modded the invading strength of the Mongols, but your way, Daelyn75, sounds very promising. I will try it as soon as I am at home. Good idea!

[Daelyn75]

I find the Mongols pretty easy to beat at the walls now, just have 4-5 Saracen Spearmen defend the gate and 1 unit on either side of the gate on the walls and you got em beat no problem. Really helps with Ballista towers!

Actually too easy, make sure you have all Ballista towers and adequate defenders and the Mongols are easy to defeat. I'm not sure what was going on with their seige weapons, but they for some reason don't use them at all, they kept them out of Ballista tower range and let their infantry get slaughtered. WTF happpend to the AI?

The AI used to destroy the walls and gate towers, but now they act like they don't know how to use them.

[Pygmalion]

I still think it would be best not to let them conquer settlements, but just raid the occupied once and move on.

-) That way, they are both still feared, since raided settlements end up being controlled by rebels + destroyed all buildings
-) They cant recruit units, since they have no settlements, not allowing them to completely annihilate all factions in the east (turks, egypt, and sometimes even byzantine empire and moors)
-) It is just like it was in RL, so they keep moving on and raid stuff. Because im looking forward to once fight the mongols with a catholic faction in europe (just like it was) and not having to fight them when attacking the middle east.
-) This way they can even keep their unbalanced stats (10 star generals, triple silver chevron units)

Can anyone actually mod such a thing? Id be very glad to see such a mod...
It would be great if one can mod a route the mongols take additionaly. So they actually reach europe some time with their 5 Stacks!

[God-Emperor of Mankind]

I'm not sure what was going on with their seige weapons, but they for some reason don't use them at all, they kept them out of Ballista tower range and let their infantry get slaughtered. WTF happpend to the AI?

The AI used to destroy the walls and gate towers, but now they act like they don't know how to use them.

I have no idea what you are talking about.
I always dread when the AI got siege weapons mainly because 1. they atleast make 4 holes in the wall(they can sometimes create a 5th hole by taking down the gate but it's rare) and 2. destroys both gatetowers and atleast the towers that are next to the gate. Sometimes it can take down the towers further down as well but that's rare.

And this happens every siege.

[notger]

Daelyn75: Did you also mod the Timurids, because I think, they also get zero upgrade units?

BTW: I like your changes very much! Mongols are now a powerful faction, not the kill-em-all-super-threat with mysteriously cheap units. Good work.

[Pygmalion]

Oh and, can anyone explain me why the Mongols appear TWICE?

They appear. I had some very hard battles against them with the Turks. I beat their last army, with their Khan.

He gets killed during battle.

Back on the strategic map, i get a ,,faction destroyed" message.
5 Turns later they reappear again? WTF? Again with 6 armies and another Khan and faction Heir. WTF?!
Thats just ridiculous....

[God-Emperor of Mankind]

Oh and, can anyone explain me why the Mongols appear TWICE?

Because they come in waves.
I think I read somewhere that they come in 3 waves.
So you just beat the first wave.

[Daelyn75]

Pygmalion I don't consider the Mongols and Timurids raider barbarians, the Mongols conquered a lot of areas in the game map and held on to them for hundreds of years. The Timurids were part of a large empire spanning from India to modern day Iran. Both the Mongols and the Timurids were just extending their empire to the west, not raiding west.

[Silent Assassin]

Because they come in waves.
I think I read somewhere that they come in 3 waves.
So you just beat the first wave.

Yep they come in tree waves the first wave is the biggest of the 3. Also about free upkeep yeah it`s maybe a pain in the butt but like Lusted said they were made to be strong. Even that said I would agree for them to keep their free upkeeps for the 3 waves but afterwards they should pay upkeep for their newly recruited units...

[Pygmalion]

Yep they come in tree waves the first wave is the biggest of the 3. Also about free upkeep yeah it`s maybe a pain in the butt but like Lusted said they were made to be strong. Even that said I would agree for them to keep their free upkeeps for the 3 waves but afterwards they should pay upkeep for their newly recruited units...

That sounds reasonable.

[Queen Annes Revenge]

they invaded both russia and the middle east with two different armies commanded by two different people.

[Daelyn75]

I edited the Timurids as well. The only difference that the Timurids have from the Mongols besides the Elephants are the Sabadar Militia, otherwise they recruit all the same stuff.

I hope my game isn't bugged then because I fought the Mongols 5 times when they had seige weapons. In 4 of them they were not used at all! The one time they only started throwing a couple of shots from their Trebuchets at my army was when I got really close, I was like WTF! On the other hand I fought Milan when they seiged my city and they were using a catapult that was firing on my walls. It could just be that the mongol AI seige weapon AI is broken?

Anyone else run into this?