Is integration necessary?

[removeduser_426582376423734]

This may seem like a carry-on from soandso thread, but whatever.

Anyway, I'd like to argue from my point of view, from experience. I live in Leicester, one of the top 5 ethnically diverse cities in England (yet, still, with only 20% minorities), and there is one long road, Melton/Belgrave Road, as there is with any city with a moderate minority, of Asians. Here, you'll find, most people either speak Punjabi, Hindi, Gujarati or Urdu.

Yet, I have yet to meet one person who is reaping benefits, or doesn't have a job. This is an extremely close-knit community, where people pay their taxes, help the City Council and the Govt whenever necessary, and are generally "Good Samaritans" to anyone (although, when I pass through it I like to play "Spot the white guy").

So, my main argument is, is integration necessary? Should most Indians move out of this place that they've lived in, been born in, grown up in? Since most migrant activity was from the 40s-70s, there have been large numbers of second generation...ers. These people have the same rights as any native Brit, as shown by law.

When people say, we're not being racist, you're not integrating, they're being very hypocritical. You, the hypothetical you, do not want us to live near you, so leave us, the hypothetical us, be. We, the hypothetical we, who are second generation-ers, must learn English to survive, and it is my, and almost 100% of the rest second generations', first language.

Well, that was a big jumble of crap. If you can pick anything out, I'd like to hear your views. I'm not good at writing coherent arguments.

[Alatar]

This may seem like a carry-on from soandso thread, but whatever.

Anyway, I'd like to argue from my point of view, from experience. I live in Leicester, one of the top 5 ethnically diverse cities in England (yet, still, with only 20% minorities), and there is one long road, Melton/Belgrave Road, as there is with any city with a moderate minority, of Asians. Here, you'll find, most people either speak Punjabi, Hindi, Gujarati or Urdu.

Yet, I have yet to meet one person who is reaping benefits, or doesn't have a job. This is an extremely close-knit community, where people pay their taxes, help the City Council and the Govt whenever necessary, and are generally "Good Samaritans" to anyone (although, when I pass through it I like to play "Spot the white guy").

So, my main argument is, is integration necessary? Should most Indians move out of this place that they've lived in, been born in, grown up in? Since most migrant activity was from the 40s-70s, there have been large numbers of second generation...ers. These people have the same rights as any native Brit, as shown by law.

When people say, we're not being racist, you're not integrating, they're being very hypocritical. You, the hypothetical you, do not want us to live near you, so leave us, the hypothetical us, be. We, the hypothetical we, who are second generation-ers, must learn English to survive, and it is my, and almost 100% of the rest second generations', first language.

Well, that was a big jumble of crap. If you can pick anything out, I'd like to hear your views. I'm not good at writing coherent arguments.

I love Leicester did my work expierence at alliance and Leicester, had loads of fun and got invited to a resturant by one of the workers at luch, he owned it and it served great ndian food.

(Just my veiws on that city, only city with the HQ's of a bank utside london)

[danzig]

From your description it sounds like they ARE integrating so where is the issue? They are doing so while still keeping their community intact. Are there actually Brits who have a problem with that? I thought the problem with lack of integration were the nutcases who ran around with their face covered yelling death to Britain, death to the west.

As I said from your description it sounds like those people want to actually BE British citizens but they also want to be and can be British-Indian or whatever, having attachment to the country they live in as well as the country of their homeland. From an American pov that IS integration, its what we have with Italian,Irish,Pakistani-American communities/neighborhoods here in the US.

If anyone has a problem with the people you are describing in Leicester then quite frankly they are idiots because it sounds exactly the way it should be. Its why (again american pov) I have zero problems with mexican immigrants who come here to make it a home and not use it as simply a means to make money.

[removeduser_426582376423734]

Yes, there are hundreds who claim this is not integrating - that they group together, cut off contact with the English people. Most, older and more traditional to be fair, women wear saris or punjabi suits, this is seen as an insult or as not integrating.

[Chaigidel]

you know this is the main reason i think the Jews have been persecuted so much -- because even though they live in many places and contribute greatly to wherever they go( talking mainly about the anti-semetism of the ancient world but a little modern)-- but because they remained "jews" first they earned the ire of xenophobic community because it feels like they are being taken over not equalized so to speak

so I understand the fear but personally I think this variety of culture over time would meld together whether it wanted too or not this goes for any immigrant group--- evident in things like santeria where native and immigrant cultures became the same thing---modern times may be tougher because nobody gets conquered-- blah just some more thoughts on the subject.

forgive my bad grammar format.

[Mikelus Trento]

Citizens should have freedom to decide where they want to live in a country, be it among others of their cultural upbringing, or with new friends. There should not be laws preventing them living together, nor should there be laws forcing them to. It should be a free choice and evolve naturally.

[removeduser_426582376423734]

There are no laws, as yet. However, this feeling of dissent may leave room for votes for, say, the BNP? It happened in Dagenham, a diverse area.

[kshcshbash]

This may seem like a carry-on from soandso thread, but whatever.

Anyway, I'd like to argue from my point of view, from experience. I live in Leicester, one of the top 5 ethnically diverse cities in England (yet, still, with only 20% minorities), and there is one long road, Melton/Belgrave Road, as there is with any city with a moderate minority, of Asians. Here, you'll find, most people either speak Punjabi, Hindi, Gujarati or Urdu.

Yet, I have yet to meet one person who is reaping benefits, or doesn't have a job. This is an extremely close-knit community, where people pay their taxes, help the City Council and the Govt whenever necessary, and are generally "Good Samaritans" to anyone (although, when I pass through it I like to play "Spot the white guy").

So, my main argument is, is integration necessary? Should most Indians move out of this place that they've lived in, been born in, grown up in? Since most migrant activity was from the 40s-70s, there have been large numbers of second generation...ers. These people have the same rights as any native Brit, as shown by law.
.

I'm from Slough. Chances are you know it if you live in Leicester. Also rather diverse. I have spent a countless number of weeks with family in Leicester, though.

The thing about Leicester is that it is rather self contained. Look at something like St. Saviour's Road. The owners of those shops are from a broad array of ethnic origins, and everyone helps each other out. It's all fine and dandy. Now, don't hate me for saying this, but you'll find that when you add native whites into the equation, things get messed up a lot of the time.
A foreigner doesn't mind his neighbour. To a "native", however, this is "those ****ing :wub: at it again destroying my country".


Just an observation is all.

Yes, there are hundreds who claim this is not integrating - that they group together, cut off contact with the English people. Most, older and more traditional to be fair, women wear saris or punjabi suits, this is seen as an insult or as not integrating.

Are you saying that a sardaar should have his bhugh taken away because it isn't integrating? I know that my grandfather and his immigrant buddies loved going and sitting in the park, each donning his white kurta and trainers. It reminds everyone what it means to be Punjabi, without hating Englishness. Trainers were more convenient, so they wore them. A kurta, however, is fine. Why not wear it? Are you saying that we should explicitly enforce fashion as a measure of one's Englishness?


Edit: By the way, that wasn't aimed at YOU. It's aimed at those who hold that viewpoint.

[enoch]

This may seem like a carry-on from soandso thread, but whatever.

Anyway, I'd like to argue from my point of view, from experience. I live in Leicester, one of the top 5 ethnically diverse cities in England (yet, still, with only 20% minorities), and there is one long road, Melton/Belgrave Road, as there is with any city with a moderate minority, of Asians. Here, you'll find, most people either speak Punjabi, Hindi, Gujarati or Urdu.

Yet, I have yet to meet one person who is reaping benefits, or doesn't have a job. This is an extremely close-knit community, where people pay their taxes, help the City Council and the Govt whenever necessary, and are generally "Good Samaritans" to anyone (although, when I pass through it I like to play "Spot the white guy").

So, my main argument is, is integration necessary? Should most Indians move out of this place that they've lived in, been born in, grown up in? Since most migrant activity was from the 40s-70s, there have been large numbers of second generation...ers. These people have the same rights as any native Brit, as shown by law.

When people say, we're not being racist, you're not integrating, they're being very hypocritical. You, the hypothetical you, do not want us to live near you, so leave us, the hypothetical us, be. We, the hypothetical we, who are second generation-ers, must learn English to survive, and it is my, and almost 100% of the rest second generations', first language.

Well, that was a big jumble of crap. If you can pick anything out, I'd like to hear your views. I'm not good at writing coherent arguments.

intergration is only necessary if you want to call a country home- if you want to be an outsider who resides in a country than intergration is unnecessary, but you have to expect prejudice -

what do you think would happen if I went to Turkey or Iran and insisted on living according to the culture and beliefs inherent to my american background?

[danzig]

what do you think would happen if I went to Turkey or Iran and insisted on living according to the culture and beliefs inherent to my american background?

In the case of Iran you'd probably end up being visited by the religious police to "handle" the situtation. Hence the difference in the way various countries handle the question of integration in fact if anything it probably reinforces the hostility to foreign cultural influence in ones home country. A British citizen might be told they have to accept say a women dressed in Islamic clothing in their country but then they look at say Saudi Arabia and see while they have to be accepting its a one way street.

As long as accepting of social integration and respect for different cultures is one sided you are going to provide suitable grounds of people to be hostile. The old why should we if they dont train of thought. While I dont agree with it I do think it is a valid concern, integration/acceptance has to be mutual.

Another example was the thread about the mosque being built in London and objections to it, its probably tough for people to swallow that they should allow it when a similar plan to build a church in Saudi Arabia would be refused. To many people think acceptance should be given freely and without strings, people dont operate that way. If one side feels like they are the ones that have to make all the adjustments to be accommodating they are going to have feelings of resentment.

[Darth Wong]

Another example was the thread about the mosque being built in London and objections to it, its probably tough for people to swallow that they should allow it when a similar plan to build a church in Saudi Arabia would be refused. To many people think acceptance should be given freely and without strings, people dont operate that way. If one side feels like they are the ones that have to make all the adjustments to be accommodating they are going to have feelings of resentment.

Are you saying that we should be tolerant or intolerant of people based on how tolerant the country they're fleeing from is?

[LoZz]

This may seem like a carry-on from soandso thread, but whatever.

Anyway, I'd like to argue from my point of view, from experience. I live in Leicester, one of the top 5 ethnically diverse cities in England (yet, still, with only 20% minorities), and there is one long road, Melton/Belgrave Road, as there is with any city with a moderate minority, of Asians. Here, you'll find, most people either speak Punjabi, Hindi, Gujarati or Urdu.

Yet, I have yet to meet one person who is reaping benefits, or doesn't have a job. This is an extremely close-knit community, where people pay their taxes, help the City Council and the Govt whenever necessary, and are generally "Good Samaritans" to anyone (although, when I pass through it I like to play "Spot the white guy").

So, my main argument is, is integration necessary? Should most Indians move out of this place that they've lived in, been born in, grown up in? Since most migrant activity was from the 40s-70s, there have been large numbers of second generation...ers. These people have the same rights as any native Brit, as shown by law.

When people say, we're not being racist, you're not integrating, they're being very hypocritical. You, the hypothetical you, do not want us to live near you, so leave us, the hypothetical us, be. We, the hypothetical we, who are second generation-ers, must learn English to survive, and it is my, and almost 100% of the rest second generations', first language.

Well, that was a big jumble of crap. If you can pick anything out, I'd like to hear your views. I'm not good at writing coherent arguments.

you seem to misunderstand integration, your example, of them paying taxes, helping the local goverment, working, having jobs and i imagen most of them speak english as a 2nd language is a lose form of integration.


if they had not integrated they would not be working, they wouldnt be paying taxes and they wouldnt have an understand of english, they would also be commiting anti social behavour.


integration isnt just about living next door to people of diffrent races

[Alatar]

if they had not integrated they would not be working, they wouldnt be paying taxes and they wouldnt have an understand of english, they would also be commiting anti social behavour.

Most of the 7/7 bombers don't fit your bill, intergation isn't doing what the rest of society does because your made to, it's doing it of free will.

[mocker]

Integration means what integrate means:
To find one's place in one's society.

I'm going to tell you about a close friend of mine.

Let us call him Hassan.
Hassan lives in my neighbourhood in south-eastern Oslo, a city with a high percentage of immigrants and ethnic minorities. His father was born and raised in a foreign land and culture, eventually moving to Norway.
His father was born into a family in a that would not be considered especially wealthy in Norway. In Hassan's home, they speak accented Norwegian only when they have visitors, otherwise they speak in Hassan's native language.
They have strong ties with the father's homeland.

Hassan has six brothers and one sister. Hassan's father used to work as a butcher, and at times he would take left-overs home to feed his family.
Hassan's family is deeply religious, and they are very involved with the local religious community, which is mostly composed of several ethnic minorities.

Today, Hassan's father works as an electrician. Hassan's oldest brother is taking an education in the military, and so is his sister. Another older brother is a working with computer software, and Hassan himself is studying hard at school. One day, Hassan is going to become a teacher.
They still attend to their religious community, and they still speak their native tongue at home and with their relatives. They often visit their family on the father's side.
Hassan considers himself as a man of his Father's blood, and secondly a Norwegian.

I'd say his family is pretty integrated alright.



PS: Hassan's real name is Stephen, and his father is Scottish. They are all Catholics.

I hope Enoch will learn some day.

[enoch]

PS: Hassan's real name is Stephen, and his father is Scottish. They are all Catholics.

I hope Enoch will learn some day.

learn what - I made no statements about Hassan personally - only gave my views on what integration "is"

I'm always down to learn something though - I can teach reading comprehension in return.....

intergration is only necessary if you want to call a country home- if you want to be an outsider who resides in a country than intergration is unnecessary, but you have to expect prejudice -

what do you think would happen if I went to Turkey or Iran and insisted on living according to the culture and beliefs inherent to my american background?

[EmperorJulian]

Integration can be a big problem, or it can be a very minor problem, it depends entirely on the conditions at hand. In the US I've seen many cases where immigrants have adapted and as an earlier poster mentioned found a place in society. It's my belief that so long as immigrants have a desire to be an American and express loyalty to their adoptive country then there's no problem with their continued maintenance of their native customs and language.

The problems arise, at least over here in the US, when you've got immigrants that hate the United States, prefer to be completely isolated in Ethnic and or Cultural enclaves and have no interest in American culture or society. Bear in mind, isolation can cut both ways and if an immigrant population shows total disdain for their fellow citizens they're likely to get that back in return. Fortunately at this point such immigrant hot spots are not yet all that prevalent, but in the future they may be. As our country, and the West in general abandons all sense of unity in favor of multiculturalism, tolerance, diversity, and political correctness I fear for what might be more than what is.

Integration is a long term, not a short term issue. And it is one that is very difficult to deal with as any suggestion of it results in the immediate "racist" straw man being brought out. For my country, I'd say the biggest challenge going forward will be to somehow find a way to integrate the citizen children of illegal alien immigrants. Given the current political climate and lack of interest in reviewing the landmark Kim Wong Ark case it's more important than ever to ensure these youngsters realize there's good things about living in America other than welfare and food stamps. I have no idea how to accomplish this integration but I think over the next century or two it could be the difference between maintaining the United States as it is, or dealing with civil strife and endless ethnic/social conflict down the road.

[Chaigidel]

the more people meet and actually interact with various cultures integration will eventually be a worldwide process--- especially because of the internet we are already seeing that -- hell this forum here with so many people from so many places who all like commanding armies and controlling land in totalwar!-- integration is a process that will take place even if people resist it -- they live there long enough each influences the other, no matter who no matter where.

[Darth Wong]

I do think it's harmful to try and isolate yourself from the larger culture surrounding you, but as pointed out already, our society tends to smear out such cultural distinctions over multiple generations.

The larger worry is when people create enclaves where everyone is of a certain ethnicity or religious affiliation and then they start making private schools for their group, in order to keep them fully isolated from the larger society from dawn till dusk. That kind of behaviour severely dampens the ability of our society to integrate people.

[Ummon]

In a sense, society is a network... :wink:

[Thanatos]

Yes. Most definitely yes. Otherwise, you give rise to factions which have no respect for your customs.