"Let go!" "Shant!" - fear and religion

[Silver Guard]

"Let go godamit! You know its bad for you!"
"Shant, its mine, and I'm keeping it"
*Tugs* "Why do you want it so ****ing much!?"
"It's mine, it's comfy, and granny said its special"
*lets go* ".... what?"

This is the attitude I get all too often when debating religion, a desperate clingy attitude so many boys get tired of with their girlfriends. You would have thought that God would have turned around and said "look, it's over, I don't love you anymore, **** off!" By now.
Nope, all the "Martyrs" blowing themselves to hell to kill you, all the earthquakes and tsunamis just don't phase you do they? Careful, you may get a restraint order soon.

All joking aside, far too many religious people I have come across cling feebly to their beliefs. But why I ask, why do you believe?
As I tend to converse with girls predominantly (you have no idea how close I came to saying "other" girls there) they have a little more grip on reality then my male companions, and answer quite frankly "It makes me feel safe". They look at the stars, and rather then feel small, they feel special, because God is focussed on them. Rather then look at their dear Granny's body and spend days bemoaning her loss, the assure themselves she's in a happier place, even if she did kill kittens for fun.

The religious are a scared people, please, everyone, donate just £2 a week to save them from the dictator who promises them food and comfort, and gives them lies and death.

Give £2, and save a soul...

[removeduser_426582376423734]

I totally agree with you, religion is some sort of fall-back pillow for those who believe in it, and it shows their weaknesses. A person who can go through life without this backup, and manage to survive it, is a strong one. Religion is for people who need something more than what there is to accentuate their lives, the rest of us are not blind to the truth.

Damn, that sounded like a troll. Meh.

[Axe-Battler]

Awesome!!!

Religion is pointless, it has done nothing for anybody.

plus rep for both of you!

[Jubal_Barca]

Religion is not what it used to be.

Today, what you say is to some extent true. People just use religion as something to blame, to claim that they are not responsible for themselves and their world.

However, religion can be a uniter. If people believe, they can believe in miracles. And if they believe in miracles, they will unite under one banner for one god, and then they can win battles, win arguments, and forge empires with the force of their belief. It's kind of a placebo effect - even if there is no god, if people believe there is one they will be willing to die for, then that can be a powerful force for unity. Look at the crusades. Terrible, but you can hardly claim the knights who tok the cross used faith as a comfort cushion can you?

I, btw, am an Atheist.

[Axe-Battler]

STOP!!!

Stop calling yourselves athiests!

It is a label, that people in the past have made for people that simply don't believe in god...

well, are taoists athiests? Buddhists?

No, they call themselves taoists, buddhists...

Guys please stop calling yourselves athiests!

I have an incredible idea for you guys! A younger, more powerful name...

Call youselves...

Mavericks

BOOM!!! Mavericks! You like that don't you?

I'm a maverick! Join me guys, the next time someone asks you what religion you are, tell them "I'm a maverick baby"

[Jubal_Barca]

Fine, call me a Logicist. I believe in rational thought.

[Darth Wong]

STOP!!!

Stop calling yourselves athiests!

It is a label, that people in the past have made for people that simply don't believe in god...

well, are taoists athiests? Buddhists?

Yes, they are. They don't believe in a supreme being.

No, they call themselves taoists, buddhists...

You don't understand how more than one label can apply to someone? I am an atheist, but I am also a humanist, as well as a a utilitarian. I don't have to choose between these categories; they overlap.

[Axe-Battler]

hmmm...

It needs more respect, and flavour...

Leftist?

[removeduser_426582376423734]

Theism is the belief in a God that cares for this world and sustains it. Therefore, atheism is the belief that there is not a God that cares for this world. One could also call it adeism, except deists believe that there is a God who has forgotten or leaves this world alone.

So, atheism isn't just a label created for us, its a label created for them, we just changed it a bit.

[sdjenkyn]

Whats wrong with believing in something ? The problem is not belief its organized , institutional religion thats the problem.

[Mig el Pig]

Whats wrong with believing in something ? The problem is not belief its organized , institutional religion thats the problem.

Ever heard about the Xhosa?

Probably not because they are all dead now, because they believed.

Ever heard about Reverend Tim Jones who went with his followers to a paradise on earth?

Most of those either commited suicide or were killed.

[sdjenkyn]

Ever heard about the Xhosa?

Probably not because they are all dead now, because they believed.

Ever heard about Reverend Tim Jones who went with his followers to a paradise on earth?

Most of those either commited suicide or were killed.

Did you have point ? Because I did and unless I am mistaken it takes two to tango so therefore Xhosa and Jonestown where organized "religions". They may have had a smaller following then the popular religions but they still qualify as a religions. Thanks for playing though.

[Silver Guard]

Actualy I was recently called a Maverick by Ozymandias, a little ironic, he was reffering to my politics rather then my religion. Just look at my name, I'm not Atheist, I'm open to the possibility of a God, I'm an Aneist, Anti-theist, I'm not open to the possibility that theists are rational.

The power of religion to unite is not all-powerful. As with anything, everyone sees things in a different way, leading to cults and sects. I disagree with you, I find religion is a divider, separating out peoples into different cultures and removing the possibility of intergration. A fundementalist Islamic society could not co-exist with a fundementalist Christain one in one area. Rather then unify, it breaks down.

I agree with you sdjenkyn, when i attack religion I usualy attack the institutions, but here I attack the irrational, comfort-blanket, god-of-gaps, religions which are so rediculously dominant.

[sdjenkyn]

Hey I like the deist definition. I might start calling myself that......I believe in a god that has forgotten us....very cryptic and probably means I can sleep in Sundays since he doesn't pay attention anyways. Thx, you really do learn stuff at twc !!!

[Axe-Battler]

The power of religion to unite is not all-powerful. As with anything, everyone sees things in a different way, leading to cults and sects. I disagree with you, I find religion is a divider, separating out peoples into different cultures and removing the possibility of intergration. A fundementalist Islamic society could not co-exist with a fundementalist Christain one in one area. Rather then unify, it breaks down.

When the ottoman empire was first formed, the two key factors to their greatness was:
1) soldiers and politicians would be immediately executed for any corruption they commited, such as stealing food from peasants.
2) EVERYONE had to be muslim, no exceptions, it was a way of unifying the people and keeping people content, as mentioned... two institutions can not live together if there's any fanaticism by people.

What were you called a maverick for? What was your political view?

The name maverick actually refered to the buddhist movement of the time jesus supposedly lived(if he did) in india, they actually were trying to make a movement against all governments, historians actually think if jesus did live then he went to india for 18 years to become a maverick buddhist, thus he returns to israel at 30 years old (disappeared from his own story in the bible at the age of 12) and started his teachings.... maverick movement was tryin to encourage the overthrow of governments, hence the romans executed him.

[Silver Guard]

For my curial views impressively, such a name to give to something so little.
To be honest, that sounds pretty ridiculous, a carpenters son travelling through parthia to India to be taught of the mavericks and return? A little too conspiracy-theory for me.
The Ottoman empire was isolated, once it reached its pinacle further expansion would have been a disaster, there was just too much opposition from Christains to becoming Islamic. As such what made the Ottoman's great was essencialy something which would make them weak. It's like setting up a political party of Chemistry students. There will be a sense of unity, but its unity is also its weakness, it would segregate itself from all others.

[Axe-Battler]

To be honest, that sounds pretty ridiculous, a carpenters son travelling through parthia to India to be taught of the mavericks and return? A little too conspiracy-theory for me.

there's lots of evidence for this, alot of real historians believe this, it isn't revisionists(conspiracy historians).

There's another good one, a really good one...

some historian thought of this, made a book, there was backing evidence, in fact I think it was almost proven historically..

The story of exodus in the bible incorrectly shows moses as the adopted son of the pharoah, when in fact, he was the pharoah himself!

The high priests all represented a god in ancient egypt, and the pharoah the sun god.

Moses(pharoah) wanted more power for himself, so he made the claim that there was only one god, the sun god.

The high priests didn't want to lose their power so they drove him out of egypt, he had followers of course, (incorrectly shown as the "hebrew" in the bible)

they eventually settled in israel after stealing it from it's inhabitants(all the stories of the wars between the hebrews and the people that were in israel first).

The religion at first, was a very peaceful religion, women were treated equally, there was no punishment for "sin", the sun god soon took the name "Yahweih", and because he was the sun, was said to be everywhere, hence modern people often say "God is everywhere"...they became known as hebrews.

Eventually as time went on, the hebrews were conquered by the babylonians, and sent into captivity.

When they eventually returned to israel, they adopted a new god, called "Jehova", and soon there was too much quarrels between what god to keep, so they combined them.

Jehova, was not a very nice god, very hateful, vengeful, punishing, violent...

While Yahwieh was all loving, forgiving, merciful...

The result was a dual god, two gods in one...

a hateful, god for one minute, and then a loving god the next.

Read the old testament and pay attention to the dualistic nature of "Yahweih" in the stories of the hebrews.

[Chaigidel]

atheists are as irrational as any christian/ muslim/ any religion--

you dilude yourself with "knowing" that doesnt exist

you pride your self on strength that is meaningless

your weakness is as plain as any person who is comforted by a belief in god.

atheists cling to the belief that there is no god just as a christian clings to christ.

It doesnt make you stronger to be without belief nor weaker, your pride in this differential is foolish, and shows the weakness in your mind.

dogma is dogma is dogma is dogma--- become agnostics and be honest with yourselves , instead of playing out a childhood rebellion fantasy against what you see as "god"--(something of course that you in no way truly understand nor attempt to, because your not capable of seriously exploring any subject without your bias.)
It doesnt matter what you believe.. the Truth remains.

[Jubal_Barca]

It doesn't make you stronger to be without belief, but depending on the belief it may allow you to look for more rational answers than 'it was the big guy in the sky did it'. Atheism allows you more rationality.

[Silver Guard]

Chaigidel. Please find me an Atheist who would not bow before conclusive evidence that there is a God. I assure you there will be few, and most of them are slightly off the rails. Almost all Atheists are infact partialy Agnostic. They are rationalists, who believe in evidence. As there is no evidence for God, they do not believe. In fact they don't believe in very much, as belief requires a lack of facts.