Proposition: Civitates/Artifexes hold positions on the CdeC

[Leonidas The Lion]

Supporters
Civitates/Artifexes:
Patricians:

This is rough idea and if considered is due for much revision.

I propose that a certain number or civitates and/or artifexes hold positions on the CdeC.
The CdeC must be comprised of 8 patricians and 4 civitates/artifexes.
For the civitate or artifex to be eligible for the seat he must meet the current requirements for patricianship.

This is a rough idea as will be subject to much revision.

[deRougemont]

Why should patricians be allowed to vote for who shall be a citizen why do civitates or artifexes have a say in it.

It's done this way, I think, because the CdeC is composed of the longest serving, most experienced and trusted members of TWC, and as such understand what standards should be met before someone is granted citizenship. Keep in mind that the CdeC is voted on by all citizens, therefore they are your representatives. Their mandate comes from all citizens; they are not an oligarchy.

I propose that this new council if formed be allowed to vote for new citizens but not patricians.

A lot of people here, including myself, don't want to overburden the Curia with bureaucracy. Before complicating things more with more offices, votes, etc., one should ask oneself, "is this really necessary?" I don't think it is, though I sympathize with your line of thought.

[Muizer]

Keep in mind that the CdeC is voted on by all citizens, therefore they are your representatives.

When someone gets elected with 99% of the vote because no candidate opposed them that election doesn't make him the representative of the electorate. That's more or less the situation with the CdeC at the moment.

[deRougemont]

When someone gets elected with 99% of the vote because no candidate opposed them that election doesn't make him the representative of the electorate. That's more or less the situation with the CdeC at the moment.

This was a good CdeC election. No one received 99% of the vote, and even the bottom two candidates (who would not get a seat on the CdeC) were not so far behind the others. Now that the CdeC has been downsized, elections will be even more competitive.

[Leonidas The Lion]

is composed of the longest serving, most experienced and trusted members of TWC

Obviously the civitates must have been citizens for 3 months at least before being eligible for the seat.
As citizens the civitates or artifexes should have a direct say in the election of members to citizens.

offices, votes, etc., one should ask oneself, "is this really necessary?" I don't think it is, though I sympathize with your line of thought.

It is necessary because it gives the citizens of TWC (civitates & artifexes)
a direct say of electing those members worhty of citizenship.
If a civitate is not patrician but is a experienced why should he not have a say in members becoming citizens.
Why should patricians elect particians and civitates & artifexes.

[Professor420]

I agree wholeheartedly that civs and artifices should vote on new citizens.

But I do not think the way is with two councils. Let them apply for seats on the CdeC...

[Leonidas The Lion]

I agree wholeheartedly that civs and artifices should vote on new citizens.

But I do not think the way is with two councils. Let them apply for seats on the CdeC...

Alright at least we are getting somewhere.
But I propose that civitaes and artifexes vote for citizens while patricians vot for patricians.
BTW Prof do you support?

[Tom Paine]

LtL, why should the Patricians not vote on civitates and artifices? The Patricians are Civ and Arts that have been further promoted for outstanding contribution. While I can see an argument for widening participation in the CdeC, I can't see one for preventing those designated as "la creme de la creme" participating.

[the Black Prince]

CdeC membership is restricted to patricians because they are the most experienced citizens, they have proved themselves to be members in good standing, and know precisely what it takes to make a good citizen. Higher offices are restricted to the more experienced rank. An entirely logical outcome. Plus, it gives the citizens something to strive for.

It would be a rather disturbing feature for someone to be promoted to citizen, and immediately have the ability to become a senior officer like the Curator, or hold a position such as a CdeC councillor. A citizen needs to prove his worth.

[Leonidas The Lion]

But I mentioned that the civitate or artifex has to have met the requirements for a patrcian but not yet promoted.
We have some old civitates that are as experienced as some patricians.
I am only saying that they should be able to vote on new members, I never said they would be able to hold senior offices.

[Tom Paine]

There's a reason they aren't promoted if they meet the requirements, LtL... tends to be, anyways.

[the Black Prince]

being able to vote on new citizens is to hold a very important office.

if, however, you feel there are some long standing citizens who meet the requirements, why havn't you nominated them?

all it takes is a PM to any councillor saying i wish to nominate X

[Leonidas The Lion]

I mean the ability for civitates to have a direct say say in the elections of members to citizens.
Why not offer them positions in the CdeC.

[Tom Paine]

No, its not; for instance the last election in the CdeC was a severely fought one.

[Leonidas The Lion]

But then you do not choose vote for who YOU think is deserving.
Why do patrcians only vote directly.
That is why I propose seats in the CdeC for civitates.

[Tom Paine]

Actually the people sitting on the CdeC do decide precisely on who they think is deserving, based on nominations - they only vote on those nominated and thus brought to their attention. Only (a select body of) Patricians vote directly because of their experience and ability, both demonstrated by the fact that the CdeC has made them Patricians.

[Leonidas The Lion]

Yes but some civitates area as experienced and sometimes more than patricians.
So do they have not a word in the nominations.
BTW Ozymandias Congrats on your election to Speaker Of The House.

[Tom Paine]

Citizens without Patrician status may nominate by PMing a member of the CdeC; and any citizen more experienced than a Patrician should be nominated, unless there is a clear reason (such as inactivity, lack of contribution, or somesuch) that they did not do so.

[Leonidas The Lion]

Citizens without Patrician status may nominate by PMing a member of the CdeC; and any citizen more experienced than a Patrician should be nominated, unless there is a clear reason (such as inactivity, lack of contribution, or somesuch) that they did not do so.

And yet some are not.
So why not allow a few 'senior civitaes' the chance to be on the CdeC.

[Tom Paine]

Mainly because they aren't Patricians for a reason. If they have been nominated, they have been rejected, and that is a bad sign.