Tactics to defeat Timurids?

[terminat]

Okay, I've been playing MTW2 for a month or so now and its great, nice improvement on Rome Total War

However, one thing I've been curious about is - how do you defeat the Timurids?

Playing as any of the European powers (on difficulty "Hard" and battle difficulty "easy") my armies can match nearly everyone - except the Timurids. Even the Mongols were alright, yet they've just been wiped out by the Timurids, who control around half the map, but thankfully haven't reached Europe yet!

On a crusade, I always seem to be able to take Constantinople/Jerusalem/whatever, as for some reason they're always lightly guarded. However, I lose it after a few turns as the Timurids arrive with a full army and utterly destroy me! (whether I hide behind the city walls or fight in the open.)

Now this is with a late-game professional army, over a thousand men, all heavy infantry or heavy cavalry. Yet those missile elephants just tear them to shreds! I had limited success with using cannons on elephants and making them run amok, however the fact that the elephants have missiles themselves makes this very hard to do.

So, I'm curious, how have you guys beaten the Timurids when you've fought them? They just seem ridiculously stronger than any other power on the map - how ever many armies you throw at them, they absolutely decimate my forces. Eventually the Timurids will reach Europe (they're already at the frontiers of the HRE) and so how do I fight them then?

Thanks in advance for responses

[Duke_of_Bavaria]

Build a castle with canon towers and mass pikemen at the entrance. 1/3 of your army should be archers with flaming arrows, they will scare the elephants away who then will run down their companions on the way out of the castle.
Facing the Timurids in the open is usualy a misstake. Also if you're near Baghdad hire some elephants yourself .
Good luck.

[Captain Kirk]

Also, letting them come to you should force them to suffer at your woods and snow bonuses. Just put as much spear wall behind your gate as possible (and if you can get one or two caricco standards to raise morale) with FLAMING arrows (v. important.) I usually use around 6 archers (2 on nearest walls to gate, 1 on the next one across) as to get the maximum cannons firing. A well used cannon outside your gate can also sometimes plough through them, but it's down to luck.

[Town Watch]

you should form a semi-circle near the gate with your pikemen. Then put some halberds right in front of the pikemen, within the pike's reach, so that they protect your pikemen a bit.

Then put some catapults right behind your pikemen. Put all your units on guard mode, and put flaming ammo on, with your catapults. You can have your shooters at the walls.

Now as they batter your gate and pour in, target the most far away unit in the gateway. The flaming catapult ammunitions will cause about 50-100 casualties when you shoot in the constricted space in the gateway.

After a few volleys, the enemies should flee

[Captain Kirk]

Oh, and it might be useful to 'flank' the enemy with your bodygaurd or any cavarly for when they rout. Destroyed Venice when they attacked me multiple times this way. basically, put it next to one of the side gates and send it around at the start. Never tried it against timurids though.

[dad_savage]

Taking down elephant artillery can be fairly easy or disturbingly hard depending on your faction. I will first detail some universal tactics however that you may find useful. First of all, you must consider terrain. Using woods to hide units as an advanced post to ambush the elephant guns can be decisive, but attempt to post a force of mixed arms in case you must deal with other enemy troops and use a backbone of high-impact units to attack the elephants directly. Portuguese Arqubusiers is a favourite of mine, and can be surprisingly useful in this role as the fact that they will be in hiding negates the disadvantage of their short range compared to muskets, and their higher attack score is of additional value against such a tough unit. Further their stats will allow them to fight hand to hand which may save your advance post from being overwhelmed while the body of your army is still en route to join the battle. A simmilar tactic using cheaper, low-quality units of good morale in large numbers can also be useful, religous fanatics, for example, will perform well in this role.

Do not only consider the potential for ambushes, though. You can limit the effect the elephant guns will have by deploying your force behind a suitable barrier.

Indifference can be a powerful asset when facing such an intimidating unit. Simply ignore the elephant guns and route the main body of the Timurid army, the damage the elephants can inflict should not be too prohibitive and they will be easy pickings once they are alone on the field without support.

Lastly, as you have said, using guns against them can yield some results, but the trick is to know your weapons. Cannons, Ribaults, Monster Ribaults, Culverins, Grand Bombards and Bombards lack the range required, either having less range or only outranging elephant artillery by a small margin and I would not advise building them. Useful guns to field are;

Basilisks (Spain, Portugal, Hungary, Russia, the HRE, France & available as mercenaries) - substantially greater range than elephant artillery, a high-impact weapon with an explosive shot capable of sending the elephants running amok, but handicapped by poor accuracy particularly at such extreme range or when using explosive shot. I would recommend a substantial battery of Basilisks to take down one group of elephants.

Serpentines (Hungary, Poland, Russia, Denmark, the HRE & France) - Probably the most useful counter to elephant artillery. They outrange them by a good margin, are very accurate and they're powerful enough to bring the beasts down. If you're playing as France, the HRE, Denmark, Poland or Hungary I would recommend fielding a large battery of Serpentines to bring the elephants down before they get into range. In the case of the HRE, Hungary and France it may be wise to use a mixed battery of heavy and light guns, fielding both Basilisks and Serpentines, but do not overdo it on the Basilisks as their weaknesses are substantial; a single team may be sufficient. Use the Serpentines to lay down a constant, accurate barrage while you hope for a lucky exploding shot from the Basilisks.

Monster Bombards (the Turks & available as mercenaries) - Similar pros and cons to Basilisks but with even further reduced accuracy and firing rate (a result of only getting one gun per team) but potentially able to cause even more damage despite lacking an exploding shot. Use these as you would Basilisks, to compliment lighter guns, or alone en masse, but do not depend upon them to carry the day without Serpentine support, be sure to have some contingency.

Mortars (Venice, Milan, Scotland, England) - the value of Mortars against elephant artillery is highly subjective, utterly dependant on terrain. They do not outrange or even equal elephant guns regarding range, and they lack exploding shots, but they can, nevertheless, cause substantial damage. Deploy them with an obstacle interposed between them and the elephant guns and this will secure them against counter-battery fire, allowing them to launch volleys without fear of reprisal. Do not rely upon them alone however as such terrain features may simply not exist when needed; use one or more Mortars as an adjunct to other tactics.

Rocket Launchers (available as mercenaries) - though outranged by elephant guns Rocket Launchers are capable of causing unequaled damage. It is unlikely you will be able to field them in high numbers though so, as with Mortars, use them as an adjunct to additional measures when/if they become available.

[Slime]

Well, you can always try the siege defense option, but in my game (Spain), they started to conquer Eastern Europe, and I attacked them. Although my casualties vary from a couple of hundred men to outrageous thousands, I've so far been able to beat them in combat. The elephants can be annoying, but I've been using a grab-and-hold tactic that seems to work: First, make sure you have a couple units of archers that have good morale. Second, have some very heavy knights with full upgrades, I prefer chivalrics. Third, have some heavy charge cavalry that can rip their infantry, and take some light cavalry to run down theirs.

Now, in the battle, use your knights to attack the elephants and pin them down. While in melee, they can't use their ranged attack, leaving them vulnerable for your archers with falming arrows. Use the chaos to scare the elephants/run them amok. This is where luck comes in. The ellies could run away in 10 seconds... or last 10 minutes. This is why I use heavy knights: they are tough enough to last and even kill the elephants. Without their devastating charge, they will go down like other cavalry. However, the what matters most is the type of the enemy army. Against a full gold chevron army made of original timurid units, my army may get utterly destroyed, with only a few hundred men remaining (Huge setting). Against a 50-50 Timurid/European mercenary army? Piece of cake. It all comes down to the elephants, really. Always have archers shooting at them, whatever the cost. And remember, once you have killed the insanely experienced starting troops of theirs, it'll get easier. It's a war of attrition. I'm using VH/VH BTW.

[Aristarchus]

It's a war of attrition.

This is exactly the case. Bravely don your armor as when the French knights first heard of the Mongols in the east. They remembered the Huns, and set out to hold the frontier for mom and hearth, with sure doom before them. I've been run off the field by the Timurids even after the first two-thirds of the battle went splendidly, and seen whole houses of the royal family destroyed.

Patience is a sure virtue here, too. Bring lots of missiles and horses, and just enough spears and other infantry to hold the front against cavalry charges. Patiently shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot to weaken the horse archers and elephants. Take high ground and stay there. If the Timurids refuse to come forward, approach slowly and methodically. Don't break ranks to attack, unless there is absolutely a clear opportunity. I agree with other comments that there is something special about the AI with Timurid and Mongol armies. They are very clever and deadly. What looks like a good opportunity against another faction is like Little Big Horn with the hordes.

[Town Watch]

archers with flaming arrows are very effective at causing them to go on rampage. Longbows ofcourse have even greater range.

most people tend to ignore javelin throwers when dealing against elephants. Almughavars and other high dmg javeliners are pretty good against them on loose formation.

[Slime]

Now that you mention it, I haven't tried Jinetes...

[Schwertmeister]

Assassinate all their leaders.

[Slime]

I did that with mongols, and while being very cunning and tactical, it was boring. It's fun fighting against something that can actually make you regret clicking the attack button.

[Mountain_Commander]

Im all defense against them. Im letting them seige my cities and castles with cannon towers. I got a lot of archers on the walls and some micromanagement can turn the tide of the battle. If they have seige its a lot harder though. My trebs are never accurate enough to hit theirs. Plus manuevering for a clear seige shot from inside a fortification is a pain. Ive withstood their last two battles. I sally out before theycan build up seige. Leaves them with one ram or so. Makes it a lot harder for them. Plus you can retrain after that round and fight wave after wave. Archers and cannon towers are working for me. It just takes awhile in battles if you're playing defensively. Try and sally out before they build three or four rams with ladders and towers.

[babyfossil]

- for me, retreat all your resources to near by city or castle.
- mass produced spearman.
- then clogged the street.

normally timuruids calvary and elephants go in first so you get to deal with them first .fire archer and javelin only cause them to run amok or rout but can still appear for later. you might end up sacrifice your city/castle but since timuruids can't seem to recruit more elephants(or 9 chevron men), it is a fair trade to me.

2nd. despicable tactics: "scorch earth" the town they about to take so they'll cause revolt when they enter. hence causing them to loose experienced men and elephant in the process

3rd. try that with disease though you'll hardly find any in late games (it seems)

[Slime]

You might end up sacrifice your city/castle but since timuruids can't seem to recruit more elephants(or 9 chevron men), it is a fair trade to me.
)

Say what? I assure you, let them build even one high-level stable and you're in for elephant spam! I assume you're dealing with horde timurids that haven't taken a settlement yet. Or a good one, that is.

[KanderDraaken]

There's another way: (Mountain_Commander u have the right name)
Find a mountain range. Stay in defensive position...
If the terrain is good, you will find urself in a natural castle.
Thanks to the terrain their siege weapons are useless and all their infantry will be tired when they manage to get all the way up to you... while in the meantime your archers (longbow preferably for the spikes) will make an arrowparty. The higher position gives you an incredible range... and they cant shoot you while moving. You will destroy them... almost no damage in ur army and then send you cavalry and destroy their siege weapons... no ransom, just kill the all. And stay there for the next wave... reinforce if damaged though. Uh and dont bother using siege urself... they dont have the rightdown angle to shoot even once... maybe mortars dunno... yet.
Up the hill everybody is a sitting duck. even the full exp infantry routs when tired.
good luck

[Panzerbear]

as some said before, it all depends on the faction. in fact, some factions might even have advantage over Timurids. take late Russia for example - upgrade a bunch of Boyar sons and let them chase their army, while your dismounted dvor deal a lot of damage with their flaming arrows to elephant's morale...

in some more "traditional" factions, your castles and spearmen/knights are the only hope...

[Warmaster Riva]

I've found when playing as Russia, great strategies are the old ones, like cavalry vs archers, spearmen vs cavalry and archers vs infantry. With Russia the Dvor Cavalry are supreme as archers/cavalry, they can take on both the Timurid cavalry and archers with ease. Another tip is to have archers hold their positions and have them fire at elephants, it will to them running amok and bashing up their own men.

P.S, When I destroyed the last tirumid army near the landing edge of the map and made the Tirumids a faction destroyed team, the next turn they came back. Does anybody have an explanation?

[LaMuerte]

P.S, When I destroyed the last tirumid army near the landing edge of the map and made the Tirumids a faction destroyed team, the next turn they came back. Does anybody have an explanation?

Perhaps not all stacks had entered the playfield. If I remember correctly every turn a few stacks enter the playfield , until they have their full 10-15 stack army horde of annihilation. Think they spawn at two different places not too far from each other. (Same as the Mongols)

[Warmaster Riva]

Perhaps not all stacks had entered the playfield. If I remember correctly every turn a few stacks enter the playfield , until they have their full 10-15 stack army horde of annihilation. Think they spawn at two different places not too far from each other. (Same as the Mongols)

I've wiped out about half their entire force then!

By the way, do horde armies head straight for a castle/city because these tirumids are randomly trying to slither through the gaps in my Russian line?