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  1. #1
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    Default Perspective on Religous History - PART 1 - The PAPACY

    This thread is designed to put perspective on religious history, please try to only list events that are historically accurate (good faith efforts)

    Also, this is not a bash the Papacy thread, which is why my first addition will be a Unpious pope who accomplished phenomenal acheivements


    "Alexander VI, 1431?–1503, pope (1492–1503), a Spaniard (b. Játiva) named Rodrigo de Borja or, in Italian, Rodrigo Borgia; successor of Innocent VIII. He took Borja as his surname from his mother's brother Alfonso, who was Pope Calixtus III. Rodrigo became cardinal (1456), vice chancellor of the Roman Church (1457), and dean of the sacred college (1476). Cardinal Borgia had four illegitimate children by a Roman woman, Vannozza; among them were Cesare and Lucrezia Borgia. Alexander was elected by a corrupt conclave. The foreign relations during his papacy were dominated by the increasing influence of France in Italy, which culminated in the invasion of Charles VIII in 1494. Alexander prevented Charles from taking the church property in Rome, but he turned over to the French the valuable Ottoman hostage Djem, brother of Sultan Beyazid II. Alexander's son, Cesare Borgia, was the principal leader in papal affairs, and papal resources were spent lavishly in building up Cesare's power. For his daughter Lucrezia, Alexander arranged suitable marriages. The favoritism shown his children and the lax moral tone of Renaissance Rome as well as the unscrupulous methods employed by Cesare and other papal officials have made Alexander's name the symbol of the worldly irreligion of Renaissance popes. Girolamo Savonarola was an outspoken opponent and critic of Alexander. Recent studies tend to minimize the pope's immorality and stress his solid achievements as a political strategist and church administrator. It was Alexander who proclaimed the line of demarcation that awarded part of the new discoveries in the world to Spain, part to Portugal (see Tordesillas, Treaty of). Alexander was a munificent patron of the arts. He was succeeded by Pius III."

    The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th ed. Copyright © 2007, Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.


    anything from stories of Pope's sons who liked to kidnap and gangbang nuns in Rome (yes, this is a true tale) to Leo I

    440-461 AD

    St. Leo I the Great

    "He stared down Attila the Hun in 452 to prevent the sacking of Rome and later persuaded a Vandal king to spare the people. The first to rule that popes are successors to St. Peter with authority over all the faithful, "he established the pope as someone who could intervene in just about any affair," O'Malley says. He gave the "definitive teaching on the divinity and humanity of Christ," McBrien says."
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/religio...al-popes_x.htm

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    Default Re: Perspective on Religous History - PART 1 - The PAPACY

    Unscathed by refutation, I would say.

    To start with Borgias, you see, they were the least religious people around. Fully political Pope and entourage/family, who infact tried to conquer Italy as their personal kingdom...
    Last edited by Ummon; May 04, 2007 at 01:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Perspective on Religous History - PART 1 - The PAPACY

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    Unscathed by refutation, I would say.

    To start with Borgias, you see, they were the least religious people around. Fully political Pope and entourage/family, who infact tried to conquer Italy as their personal kingdom...
    I am well acquainted with the borgias - Alexander also was a generous patron of the Arts and helped engender artistic freedom rather than the suppression of artistic freedom favored by the majority of the popes before him

    you will also notice I picked one of the less salubrious bios of Alexander available

    I don't entirely understand your use of Unscathed by refutation, I would say.

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    Default Re: Perspective on Religous History - PART 1 - The PAPACY

    A reference to previous events.

    In any case, the secular evolution in Renaissance Papacy, indeed payed for the resurgent Painting and Sculpture of the 1400s.

    So surely, corruption was useful, materially. The Borgias though, were pagans under many aspects. Infact, the frescos they commissioned for the Papal apartments, had to be covered, due to their obscene nature. Valentino Borgia killed the husbands of his sister Lucrezia, repeatedly. Alexander, poisoned and executed Roman nobles to get their riches. In his whole Papacy, he promoted orgies and pagan rituals, and the crest of his house (the black crowned bull) had striking resemblances with pagan symbologies.

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    Default Re: Perspective on Religous History - PART 1 - The PAPACY

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    A reference to previous events.

    In any case, the secular evolution in Renaissance Papacy, indeed payed for the resurgent Painting and Sculpture of the 1400s.

    So surely, corruption was useful, materially. The Borgias though, were pagans under many aspects. Infact, the frescos they commissioned for the Papal apartments, had to be covered, due to their obscene nature. Valentino Borgia killed the husbands of his sister Lucrezia, repeatedly. Alexander, poisoned and executed Roman nobles to get their riches. In his whole Papacy, he promoted orgies and pagan rituals, and the crest of his house (the black crowned bull) had striking resemblances with pagan symbologies.
    but he was Pope, god's annointed, the direct heir of Peter, and absolute authority on the world of god - I am kidding of course

    as far as unscathed - go check out the progress, TG is wise but he is not the pope of medieval history - and remember, debate isn't entirely about being right or wrong or changing people's perceptions - it is also about using quality arguments to make said points accessible and reasonable - and my arguments and tactics were fairly well done - without TG's intervention I was already ending up on top from a purely argumentitive perspective - and as we both know, even that can be argued

    think about having me include it in the helios - I will be sure to color it in your favor to protect my own self from complaints

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    Default Re: Perspective on Religous History - PART 1 - The PAPACY

    "My enemies will take hold of my Church..."

    :wink:

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    Default Re: Perspective on Religous History - PART 1 - The PAPACY

    where is that quote from ummon :O

    god gave man the truth the devil made it religion-- upanishads?

    :O i have no facts to add other than popes are cool.

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    Default Re: Perspective on Religous History - PART 1 - The PAPACY

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    "My enemies will take hold of my Church..."

    :wink:

    Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times

    yes they will - from day one apparently :wink:

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    Default Re: Perspective on Religous History - PART 1 - The PAPACY

    "I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them" (Acts 20:29, 30).

    In any case, the sentence above must be one prophecy of some saint nun of the 19th century. I must check out.

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    Default Re: Perspective on Religous History - PART 1 - The PAPACY

    I always wondered which passage predicted the evangelical movement








    if you can't smile at everything then you can't think about anything - Jesus
    Last edited by enoch; May 04, 2007 at 04:32 PM. Reason: jesus my gardner of course - should I have made that more obvious

  11. #11

    Default Re: Perspective on Religous History - PART 1 - The PAPACY

    How about the Papess Joanna ? That being a woman bacame monk and later Pope ? And gave birth to a child from the papal secretary at the gates of st.Peters basilica ?
    EUROPA SEMPER CAPUT MUNDI

  12. #12

    Default Re: Perspective on Religous History - PART 1 - The PAPACY

    please tell more of this woman pope?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Perspective on Religous History - PART 1 - The PAPACY

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaigidel View Post
    please tell more of this woman pope?
    Oh,this is the most intense and beautiful story I've ever read .She had a straight-simmetrical face that could pass for boy's .Learned rhetorics well and was elected at few disputes as leader,later by people's consent grew more and more in hierarchy .She was satisfied of what she achieved and didn't intend to somehow harm christianity ...just enjoyed her/his life(and nobody guessed what he is)...Untill she was elected for a Pope and met her new secretary,a 20 year old Italian Frolentino..Made it many times in the chambres where the triple Tiara and the Keys of st.Peters hang...and got pregnant.
    Now when she undestood this was too late for abortion...Comes an angel from the God saying"I have 2 cups for you-one of the unnoticeable truth that you'll give birth to the child with nobody understanding and live nicely to your death,but will have the severest tortures in hell for eternity .And the second of humiliation-if you choose it will be saved ,but all should learn your infamy" She stretched her hand to the first but noticed the face of the angel turn sad and grey..Then she froze and bent down.And took the second cup..
    At the Palm week the next year when conducting the ceremonies she had to bring to the world the fruit of the papal passion..
    Have no idea whether the story is true or just a novel...
    Last edited by felicissimus; May 08, 2007 at 04:02 PM.
    EUROPA SEMPER CAPUT MUNDI

  14. #14

    Default Re: Perspective on Religous History - PART 1 - The PAPACY

    very interesting

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    Default Re: Perspective on Religous History - PART 1 - The PAPACY

    Quote Originally Posted by felicissimus View Post
    How about the Papess Joanna ? That being a woman bacame monk and later Pope ? And gave birth to a child from the papal secretary at the gates of st.Peters basilica ?
    b/c of the female interloper on the Chair of St. Peter

    every pope has to undergo a check to confirm he is the full package before being invested

    I wonder which cardinal got to look over the Rottweiler's balls

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