*NEW* Factions home AOR regions

[Miraj]

The following maps summarize each faction's "home" AOR regions. A home AOR region is where the faction can recruit its full roster. Only local levies, mercenaries and unique units can be recruited outside of the factions home AOR.

Byzantium

Turks


Armenia


Egypt


Jerusalem


Georgia


Abbasid


Seljuks


Khwarezm


Ghazni


Ghorids


Rajputs


Kypchaks

[iudas]

In my opinion, the factions have too many home regions. The feature will be less important if you keep this number of home regions.

[Miraj]

In my opinion, the factions have too many home regions. The feature will be less important if you keep this number of home regions.

Do you mean the home regions should be reduced? I can agree with that. Any specific suggestions?

[iudas]

Well, Ghazni and the Ghorids look like they'll have a lot of home regions as "home" from this preview. If I were you, I'd have only given them their starting regions and, say, two more, so they'd be forced to send reinforcements from a few regions to where they go, and guard conquered cities with levies (I'm sure this was your idea too, I only said how it'd be better).

[Miraj]

Well, Ghazni and the Ghorids look like they'll have a lot of home regions as "home" from this preview. If I were you, I'd have only given them their starting regions and, say, two more, so they'd be forced to send reinforcements from a few regions to where they go, and guard conquered cities with levies (I'm sure this was your idea too, I only said how it'd be better).

Very good point.

But the reason for the size of the ghazni and ghorids is because thats their historical empire. Same for teh Khwarezm. Same for the Byz, same for egypt.

However for gameplay purposes I can see what you're trying to say. The only problem is that if I limit the home regions too much.. all you'll see is a bunch of levies - because frankly the AI isn't that smart.

But for the player I definitely agree with what you're saying. I will probably reduce the home regions down - just not so much to cripple the AI.

[iudas]

I didn't know you were thinking about their historical empire as I'm not a middle-eastern history buff. What I'm sure about, though, is that they conquered those areas in, at least partially, the way I described.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

I would suggest changing the Byzantine AOR thing a little:


Based off this map:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:R...pire-117AD.png

If you don't like the idea, then maybe model there AOR after the Eastern Empire's later extent. Heres a map of the Empire at the time of its division into East and West: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:3...6lightblue.PNG

[Ahiga]

I agree that with our current 'haves or have nots' system, where you either get your full roster or only AOR/mercenaries, the homelands are far too large. That's why I would suggest a three or four tiered Recruitment system like MA.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=66612

Not really their integration/assimilation but their 6-tiers of cultural affinity is what I am talking about. In our case, the idea is basically this:

Tier 1: Homeland

Every faction has a small homeland territory, which were those they held throughout their existence, or those that make up the nucleus of their existence. They can recruit all their units from these.

Crusaders: Outremer/Crusader Levant
Armenia: Cilicia Armenia
Ayyubids: Egypt + Possibly south Palestine
Byzantium: Balkans + western Asia Minor
Rajputs: India
Ghaznavid/Ghorid: Afghanistan (And possibly some of Pakistan)
Khwarezm: Transoxania + modern day Turkmenistan.

Tier 2: Expansion

Historical expansions, or territories once/future held by these factions. Ones which it's feasible they could or did expand to and recruit something close to their native roster. Less units here. For instance, Rajputs wouldn't be able to recruit any Rajput Warrior units, but could recruit their better spearmen and such. Abbasids couldn't recruit Caliphs Guard or Abna, but could get Faris.

It is only their historically recent acquisitions. Places where they could fairly easily return to dominance in influence. Hence why Byzantium does not get Egypt, but only Eastern Asia Minor (Lost only a hundred years ago) and Syria, or why the Abbasids will not get the full extend of their empire (But probably only parts of Western Iran and Syria)

Armenia: Eastern Asia Minor, Original Armenia
Crusaders: Balkans and Westernmost Asia Minor (?)
Ayyubids: Palestine and Syria
Byzantium: Eastern Asia Minor and Syria(?)
Rajputs: Pakistan
Ghaznavid/Ghorid: This would either be tier 2 or tier 3. Ghaznavid would probably get the rest of Pakistan (South, into the Soomro dynasty on the map), Ghorid might get north India (Delhi). Instead, they could not get these and get more of east Iran/Khorasan.
Khwarezm: Much of Iran [Mostly the Eastern parts]

Tier 3: Sphere of Influence

This would be areas where their influence is felt but they themselves are not truly present in large or imposing presence. Much less of the roster would be recruitable. Not sure about examples.

Armenia: Western Asia Minor, Northern Levant (Antioch was either part of 2 or 3.)
Ayyubids: All of the Levant, southernmost Egypt, probably the Tigris/Euphrates parts of Iraq too.
Byzantium: Rest of the Levant down to south Palestine, much of the Caucasus Mountains. Not egypt.
Crusaders: Eastern Asia Minor
Rajputs: Possibly Afghanistan [I think India had one last resurgence into Afghanistan before the Ghaznavid/Ghorid]
Ghaznavid/Ghorid: Whichever was not done in Tier 2 (east Iran if Tier 2 was Pakistan, Pakistan if Tier 2 was East iran)
Khwarezm: All of Iran, along with Afghanistan(?)

Tier 4: New Horizons


New territories that were not historically held or influenced, or barely were. Nothing except AOR/mercenaries recruitable here. Rajputs would have everything beyond Afghanistan (The parts closest to Hindu Kush) be this. Crusaders would have anything past Asia Minor/levant be this. Ectera.)


Some factions would have advantages in this over others. The Seljuks should have a very large tier 2 and Super large tier 3. In the future, we can consider discussing ideas of being able to colonize areas over very long periods of time.

I'll upload a very rough idea for this in a moment

[Sinan]

I have'nt read the whole thread (yet), just the first post.

This is great but look, those AOR are too many. If you look at the Turk one for example, it's huuuuge. Actually all of them are too many. Just a suggestion; it's better to reduce them by about 20-30%.

I love the update and the work though, thanks.

[Miraj]

I've talked this over with Ahiga and all of the factions AORs will be reduced and a new tier added. I will update it pending further discussion. Thanks for all the input people - it definitely helps.

[Tadzreuli]

very interesting...hm, I think we should give to Georgia for AOR also palestinian provinces, because the Georgian kings always had close communication on the holy land and in Jerusalem. In Palestin till now were kept large Georgian monasters and churches. but todeys they are under Greecs rulle. it speaks that Georgia, during the power, delivered any help, in number and military, orthodox christians all over the world, and especially in Palestin. The Georgian colonies naturally demanded also military protection. For are sewn up numerous pilgrims from Georgia, soldiers were hired in Palestin from Georgian colonies too...

[IrAr]

After some thought, I realised that Armenia's AOR is perfect-- it might seem akward for balance puroposes, but it is rather historical.

[Ahiga]

I think you have it backwards. Tier 4 in that was going to be everywhere they can only recruit AOR/Mercenaries.

The new version is basically

Tier 1 - Homeland [Starting territories + strongly Factional territories] All Units
Tier 2 - Sphere of Influence [Areas where Their influence/political power was dominant, or one of the primary forces] Some/Many units.
Tier 3 - New Horizons [Those where their influence is medium/light, or nothing.] No Faction Units, just AOR/mercenaries

Either in 1 or 2 does "Expansions" territories get added. The areas where they historically would expand to. Asia minor would be an Expansion area for Byzantium, whereas Syria would be a Sphere of influence for them. I'm not sure where it fits in, though: whether Expansion-territories would allow All units recruitable, or some/many. I think Some/many is better historically, and All Units is better gameplay wise.

IrAr: I was going to post about that. I wasn't too sure about Armenians being able to recruit Tier 2 in south levant. However, you did raise a good point, and I am told that today there are 4 districts of jerusalem: Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and Armenian. It's worth consideration, I think. The only balancing issues I had were in regards to the Crusaders and worrying the Armenians would have more abilities over them.

But if we let the Crusaders have tier 2 in some of the Caucasus too, I could see Armenia getting tier 2 in the rest of the levant.

But I am a little worried about ethnicity being used to decide Tier 2. If that is used, then it may give the Turks a monumental advantage. In some ways that'd make total sense, in others it would seem too unfair.

[Taneda Santôka]

Yes, stick to Tier1 only homeland, having to wait for the homeland to send reinforcements in far away conquests really adds to a campaign's interest and length (reminds me of great ChivTW campaigns), unless you rush and fight with only merc armies wcih sux since there is no more faction distinction.
And it will be great, if, for example, you let the Byzantine not be able to recruit any homeunit in any homeland of their neighbours, to depend on the local levies and represent "resistance" to the new master, so no recruitement in armenia, georgia, etc (except latin states, wich is a whole different case, since there isnt really any local genuine populace...)

[IrAr]

The thing is, as a people under foreign rule so many times, the Armenians were very spread out. Maybe this offsets their being completely surrounded.

[Manuel Komnenos]

This is great idea, but we have problem for Byzantium - the greater half of the Empire, don't exist on the map(Many core regions for army are there). So my idea is that homeland teritory is approx. teritory under Basil II. Because when Alexius, John II and Manuel I reconquered part of teritory lost after Manzikert they were surprised that whole population receive them as liberators. So the greek majority was very large in those territories. Borders of Empire of Basil II are on this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:B...ightpurple.PNG

[IrAr]

Armenia should definitley be tier 1 for Kilikia.

[Manuel Komnenos]

Armenia should definitley be tier 1 for Kilikia.

If I remember correctly, Armenia is incorporated in Byzantine Empire in years prior to beggining of this mod, in winter 1158-59. This is historical, but for game purposes Armenia exist as state. Neverthless those regions must have byzantine ''homeland'' roster if Byzantium conquer them.

[IrAr]

Oh yes, the Thema Armenikon or something like that.
By the way, I am making a more detailed homeland map with 4 (might make it 5) tiers for Kilikia.