Irish General Election

[wilting]

So the election campaign has kicked off and I am still undecided who I will vote for in my first general election (I previously voted in local and European elections and made some bad choices. I also voted against the amendment in the shameful citizenship referendum.)

I'm curious to hear what any other Irish Members have to say.

My choice of who to vote for is rather limited. I absolute refuse to vote for:

Sinn Fein - Murdering Terrorist and Socialist Party
Green Party - Militant Pacifist Europhobes
Labour - Socialists
Socialist Workers Party - Socialists

A lot of people have been musing about the Greens getting into government, which doesn't make me happy at all. It's not about the environment, I fairly environmentally inclined, it's about their politics, shall we say.

Which limits my choice to:

Progressive Democrats - Small party which has been in Government, but seems likely to end up on opposition after this election
Fianna Fail - Historically dominant party. Have been in Government for a while and change is good (but so is experience), also are corrupt, but are charismatically led
Fine Gael - Historically second party. Don't like because they would go into Coalition with Labour, manifesto perhaps a bit pie in the sky, led by a politically unimpressive wooden plank

To explain to non-Irish members, although there are somewhat left and right parties in Ireland the traditional left-right divide doesnt really exist here. The parties are generally quite close ideologically and the real differences are policy ones. The traditional divide is between Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, dating back to the opposing sides of the civil war. I find it a rather outdated and frustrating divide.

Broadly speaking I am ideologically compatible with all three of these parties, with subtle preferences between them on particular issues. I'd vote for the Progressive Democrats no question if they were larger with a greater likelyhood of being in Government. I'd vote for Fine Gael if they had more coherent policies or were better led. In those circumstances I would love a Progressive Democrat and Fine Gael coalition. But that is not going to happen.

So that leaves Fianna Fail, who are good in some ways and bad in others for the reasons I've outlined. I'd really like a change in Government, I think it's necessary and healthy for a democracy, but I'm not seeing any great alternatives.

I'll probably vote PDs No1 and and pick and choose between the other two for No2 and No3. Or I might give up on parties altogether and just vote on a candidate basis for those who have represented my area well.

[finneys13]

Piece I wrote for another forum.

At the moment, the largest party by a country mile is Fianna Fáil (FF), who are centrists, they are just short of a majority so they are in coalition with the Progressive Democrats (PDs), who are fairly right wing. Our Taoiseach (PM), Bertie Ahern is the leader of FF, a man of the people, but also been called the 'slyest and the most cunning of them' all by a former Taoiseach, Charlie Haughey, who was no clean slate himself. The leader of the PDs, Michael McDowell, is a bit of a firebrand who doesn't know when to shut up, but probably there are very few people who don think he is not a Justice Minister. FF are the traditional largest party, traditionally popular with the masses, despite acting like gangsters and serving themselves, but to be fair, as they are almost always in power, so they most do something right.

The most likely alternative government is a Fine Gael/Labour/Green Party coalition. Fine Gael (FG) are lead by Edna Kenny, and are also centrists, Labour, lead by Pat Rabbitte and are left of centre and the Greens, led by Trevor Sargent (only Protestant in the Dáil (parliament)), are, well green and like bicycles. Fine Gael are the traditional second party of the country, traditionally popular with the larger farmers and such.

The other party, the black sheep of Leinster House, are Sinn Féin, who are expected to win some more seats in the more Republican areas, but none of the other parties will have anything to do with them, even if it was a hung Dáil.

Despite our economic miracle, our health services and education are still crap, lack of doctors, nurses, teachers, hospital, schools, etc., and with the expected fatigue of the same government for two terms already, the FG/Labour/Green coalition is a possibility, but Bertie has a canny knack of plucking victory from the jaws of defeat.

Should be noted that in Ireland, we use the pretty good single transferable vote system, a form of proportional representation, wiki piece on it

I think that is a decent summary, if/when I vote (depends on if can as I won't be in Ireland), my first vote would be for the local independent candidate, as I know him, lives down the road and has fairly sensible ideas. Next votes would be probably for Labour, then Green, then FG, basically we need a change of government, two full terms, 10 years, is enough for any government.

You seem to have your definitions of socialism wrong, a look at Labour's policies will show that they are not a socialist party, left of centre yes, socialism is much further left than they are.

And how is it possible to be "Militant Pacifist Europhobes"? A contradiction if there ever was one.

Essentially the country needs a change of government, FF/PDs have been in power now for ten years, they have done a great job with the economy, but they have left too many services behind. Our health system is in an utter shambles, our schools are overflowing, we need huge investment in public transport, all things that FF/PDs have done very little to maintain let alone improve.

[wilting]

You seem to have your definitions of socialism wrong, a look at Labour's policies will show that they are not a socialist party, left of centre yes, socialism is much further left than they are.

Oh I admit it was a total oversimplification. As I stated in my post the ideological divide isnt hugely significant (Excepting the following regarding Pacifists). Sure don't we know Bertie is the only "real" socialist. Labour have never done or said anything that I particularly liked or agreed with, or at least made a particular impact on me (Except pandering to the below).

And how is it possible to be "Militant Pacifist Europhobes"? A contradiction if there ever was one.

No, in my mind "Militant Pacifist" is absolutely the appropriate term. I'm referring here to our plane smashing friends (there's your contradiction), with whom the Greens are very close to ideologically. As for the Europhobe part, I need only point to the hysteria generated by the Nice Treaty. Our neutrality has been highjacked by a very specific brand of pacifist ideology rooted in an ideologically absolutist and prejudiced world view that I view with great disdain.

Essentially the country needs a change of government,

I agree, which I why I'm so frustrated with the choices available.

[finneys13]

No, in my mind "Militant Pacifist" is absolutely the appropriate term. I'm referring here to our plane smashing friends (there's your contradiction), with whom the Greens are very close to ideologically. As for the Europhobe part, I need only point to the hysteria generated by the Nice Treaty. Our neutrality has been highjacked by a very specific brand of pacifist ideology rooted in an ideologically absolutist and prejudiced world view that I view with great disdain.

The Greens and the plane smashers are not the same, but have some close ideas, but so do FF and SF.

[wilting]

The Greens and the plane smashers are not the same, but have some close ideas, but so do FF and SF.

That's a bit of a stretch. In fairness, they are hardly the same thing. I greatly dislike the plane smashers, but I wouldn't put them in the same league as those associated with SF. Not that I feel obliged to defend FF, I'm more FG inclined. I suppose I'm going to have to vote FG 1 and PD 2 and hope being under a government including Labour (or the Greens... but that could happen either way) isn't too intolerable. It's a matter of who I dislike the least meeting with some pragmatism.

EDIT: Who voted for SF but wont post to defend their position?

[shylence]

FF and FG are so corrupt The shell gasworks in Mayo are so dodgy it makes my blood boil. It drives me mad!

Being born in Derry and living in England, now with dual nationalty i would vote for a socialist party since i am a communist but since the IRSP abstain from such things i wouldnt vote anyway I hope sinn fein make some inroads in the south i really do, it will force FF and FG to pull their fingers out and really work to make a differance for everyone.

The Celtic tiger has done ireland some good and the peace in the north has ment that ireland has never had a better time in history then today. I wonder what happens if the bubble bursts....

It was me. Do you want to cruicfiy me? ill hadn you the nails

[Finn]

Born and raised in Ireland but currently have made the U.S my home, if I did happen to be in Ireland at the time of the elections I would probably vote Fianna Fail first and after that it would depend on the candidates.

I can understand the frustration some feel with the current Government and sometimes a change can be good, but Ireland has come a long way in the last 10-12 years and I don't think now is the time to change the formula of success.

[finneys13]

Born and raised in Ireland but currently have made the U.S my home, if I did happen to be in Ireland at the time of the elections I would probably vote Fianna Fail first and after that it would depend on the candidates.

I can understand the frustration some feel with the current Government and sometimes a change can be good, but Ireland has come a long way in the last 10-12 years and I don't think now is the time to change the formula of success.

Shame about our health service crumbling and no public transport.

[Finn]

The health care in Ireland has always been dreadful, and I don't think a change of Government will fix the problem, Public transportation needs improvement, but its the same everywhere and remember Rome wasn't built in a day. Its going to take time and money to improve these services, but eventually they'll get there.

[shylence]

I have no credibility.

Wellll i was raised by communists and i have made my own choices and i still belive that there are some serious issused to be raised about how the wealth of country is distrubuted. How is FG corrupt well it all boils down to big business really an increasing factor in Ireland and Britian. In all fairness i dont vote because i dont trust the world in general, i dont trust capitialism.. yes yes i know without i might not be sitting here on a pc at work dealling in exporting fresh and frozen meats around the EU but the business im involved in is another issue and my grasp of the english language in words is shite.

The whole shell plant in mayo is a fine exmaple of big buisness in ireland. Yes it was the soldiers of destiny that instigated its business but sure that if Fine Gael were to come into power too they wouldnt mind its "benefits" either i havent got the facts in figures to show you how and who the shell plant in Mayo is so shifty. i didnt expect to get into a debate today


basically who ever invests the most in the Republic is who ever the politicians really care about. If its not the big business people who are really controlling them. I dont know, im not a politician i feel that when you get into politics you cross a line and reach a point you can never turn back from.

Ignorance is bliss they say. Id rather keep mine i doubt i would like what id see

[finneys13]

The government have done next to nothing to improve either in the last ten years, at least give another shower a chance.

Ever you ever been to most European countries? Almost all of them put us to shame. We have easily the worst public transport system at the very least I have seen.

[shylence]

Yes its quite dodgy navigating the bus time in west clare that i know off. Kilkee had no bus stop and when trying to find out times in limerick it was a diaster. Now Ulster Bus is brilliant its quicker to get from Derry- belfast in a bus then on the train!

I havent been on the train in the south for a very long time i couldnt quite comment on that

[Finn]

The government have done next to nothing to improve either in the last ten years, at least give another shower a chance.

Ever you ever been to most European countries? Almost all of them put us to shame. We have easily the worst public transport system at the very least I have seen.

It took Ireland a long time to recover from British occupation and only recently has it actually prospered, so of course our Public transportation is going to be light years behind our neighbors, we've come into the game late and have a lot of catching up to do, but I don't a Government that will increase taxes and probably stymie the economy is the answer.

[finneys13]

It took us a long time to recover from Dev is more accurate than recovering from the British.

[shylence]

Yer Dev and his stupid fantasy. bahh but he has gone those times has changed Seán lemass has introudced some reforms that actully helped Irish Gaelic culture survive where from the 20s-4os seemed to decline more

[Duke_of_Bavaria]

Finna Gail concidering how good Irelands economy is going. It was at a rock bottom before EU.

[Cúchulainn]

Come on Bertie "Four More Years".....of your ****ups(Port Tunnel anyone)

Sinn Féin, always

Beidh ár lá linn.

[finneys13]

A term is five years, but can't expect much better from a SF voter.

[Cúchulainn]

A term is five years, but can't expect much better from a SF voter.

I know its five years, but "Five more years", makes no sence to an American, and who are the majority here, us or them.

Plus I don't trust northsiders....even though I am one.
Or a man who can't tell the differance between a Gift and a Loan.
Or who doesn't understand the principle behind banks.

[Sétanta]

Fianna Fail. All my Irish relatives (that would be all of them, but I mean the ones that can vote) are registered members of that party, except for a grandma that still votes Sinn Fein, and a cousin that is a member of Ogra Sinn Fein (Young Sinn Fein).

I still like Bertie, so he gets my vote.

Fine Gael is like the American Democrats (meaning a bunch of hacks) only worse, if thats even possible.