(Amendment) Opifex Alteration Bill

[Tom Paine]

At present, the Constitution says the following on the matter of getting Opifices access to the Curia:

If the nominee was not already a Burgensis, this rank shall also be conferred upon them if they pass.

Now, this has two problems; one, it enforces citizenship on those who may not want it - as we know is the case with some modders; this seems likely to make some turn down an award they are more than deserving of. Second, it gives them basic access - the same as an Artifex. But if they have contributed to the extent where both the CB and the Curia think they deserve the rank of Opifex, surely they deserve the rank of Miles instead of Burgensis? Therefore I move that Section 3 Article 2 Subsection 1 be amended to read:

Opifex

To qualify as an Opifex, the nominee must have served the Total War Centre or Total War Community with exceptional input to any of the boards or mods in any capacity other than that of a Staff Officer. A member of any Rank is eligible to become an Opifex, but must also meet the criteria to become a Burgensis. His nomination must also be seconded by an elected member of the Consilium Burgensum.


Qualifying nominees shall have their nomination posted in the Camera Proponentum and will be moved to vote as per the procedure in Section 2 Article 3. Once moved to they shall be voted upon for a period of one week and require a two-third majority of non-abstaining votes to achieve the Rank. If the nominee was not already a Burgensis Miles, this rank shall also be conferred upon them if they pass and so choose. A nominee who fails to pass his vote is not eligible to re-nominated until three months have passed.

This Bill will apply retroactively, granting all present Opifices Miles status if they so choose.

Supporters:

Just to make it more than clear and more than explicit, the requirements for gaining the rank of Opifex - that is, extraordinary achievement, bicameral vote, and Burgensis qualification - are unchanged.

[the Black Prince]

no

one, you are mistaken, a person is quite capable of refusing to accept citizenship along with their opifex rank, and this has already happened.

opifex does not contain citizenship. its an honorary rank that confers no status. the constitution explicitly says this. therefore when awarding the rank of opifex, citizenship is conferred as a separate entity and its quite possible to accept the honorary position without holding the normal rank, as it is with all the honorary ranks.

two, there is no subjective criteria for patricianship, it is awarded solely on the judgement of the CdeC based on contributions. i see no reason whatsoever to make this rank an automatic attachment to anything
this is especially the case as the objective requirement for patrician is CITIZENSHIP. your proposal would have the admirable goal of preventing anyone not a citizen to ever achieve Opifex and i oppose that wholeheartedly.

[Garbarsardar]

this is especially the case as the objective requirement for patrician is CITIZENSHIP. your proposal would have the admirable goal of preventing anyone not a citizen to ever achieve Opifex and i oppose that wholeheartedly.

And this Bill confers Patricianship along with the Opifex rank. So it offers another way. So it stops no one. So your point is moot.


However, what I cannot grasp is the concept of "enforcing citizenship". Since citizenship confers no duties and no obligations except the respect of the ToS (which goes for anyone, anyway) how nothing can be "enforced'?

[Tom Paine]

Hardly so, since the objective requirement would then become "Citizenship or the Opifex award" - the only reason Divus does not need this is because the becoming of a Divus follows only on things that already require one to be a citizen. Furthermore, yes, Patricianship is based on contributions... are we not going to admit that the contributions of Opifex far outclass those of, even, most Patricians? So is their contribution not more than deserving?

As to turning down the rank - it was done... illegally, technically. Show me where in the Constitution it is actually allowed.

[the Black Prince]

actually it does not

someone can become a staff officer, an editor, chief of content, retire, and become divus without ever being a citizen. its just very unlikely such a person would not be awarded it (though they might refuse).

show me where its prevented. where does it say that its conferred against someone's wishes? that would be most illogical. If someone can resign a rank, they can certainly choose not to accept it, and since its not part and parcel of opifex, they can, and have, declined one while accepting the other. In this sense, those non citizen opifex members are being offered two rewards at the same time under one vote, and, like any reward, can choose to accept it.

its always been a basic principle that if someone doesn't want a rank, they don't have to accept it. this is why all nominations should be accepted by the party involved.

as for patrician, it cannot be the case that people are promoted to the patrician class without meeting the requirements for it. currently, we require all opifex candidates to meet the requirements of citizenship. if you up that to patrician, then they must meet the requirements for being a patrician. one of which is having been a citizen for 1 month.

I don't give a damn about contributions, of course their contributions are worthy, thats why they're being given opifex.

contributions aren't the point, prerequisites are. to be a patrician, you have to be a citizen, to familiarise yourself with the ways of the curia among other things, since patricians can hold the highest offices of the curia.

you cannot open any rank to people who do not meet the requirements, therefore you appear to be seriously suggesting that we should restrict opifex to only citizens? and i say HELL NO


by all means, wait a month, and nominate everyone of the new opifex's if you so wish. you're one yourself, you can do that, it doesn't take much effort. the reason they've not been made patrician is not because they're contributions aren't worthy but because as yet, they don't qualify.

[Tom Paine]

Citizenship also refers to the gaining of the rank of Burgensis, on this site, and that is what is enforced on people at present, though thankfully HS is taking (semi-legal) action to allow those who do not want it, to not have it.


tBP, when it says "shall" and has no way of turning it down, it stops them turning it down. Shall means, remember:

1. (in the first person) expressing the future tense: this time next week I shall be in Scotland | we shan't be gone long.
2. expressing a strong assertion or intention: they shall succeed | you shall not frighten me out of this.
3. expressing an instruction or command: you shall not steal.

None of these is optional, and the only one that, in context, it actually is, is three - a command. They shall be given the rank of Burgensis - at present, whether they want it or not. The fact is, they can then resign; but presently, they cannot turn it down.

And as to being unable to offer the rank to those who do not meet the requirements... this changes the requirements. Many Patricians never come near the Curia, and therefore do not need to be familiar with it - that spiel of yours, since Curial activity was taken away as a requirement, has become inapplicable; yes, we can give Patricianship to Opifexes by changing the requirements; this seems, oddly, to be an alien concept to you.

[deRougemont]

However, what I cannot grasp is the concept of "enforcing citizenship". Since citizenship confers no duties and no obligations except the respect of the ToS (which goes for anyone, anyway) how nothing can be "enforced'?

I've never understood this either... It seems like a concept that has survived to placate a very few rebellious modders and no one else. So a small minority somehow dictates the entire operation?

[the Black Prince]

but the bill you are supporting elsewhere INCREASES patrician requirements.

almost none of the people recently appointed Opifex would meet a requirement to become a patrician. If you had proposed this before HS did his mass nominations, almost none of those people now opifex would be able to become so, because they don't meet the current patricianship requirement, let alone the one you have just stated your support for in the other thread.

yes, you can award patricianship to opifexes, but only by changing the patricnahip requirements. we are doing this in the other thread. we are changing them upward, we are making it HARDER and its still linked to citizenship. a person must be a citizen for 1 month before they can become patrician.

If you make it so that patrician is awarded with Opifex, people must meet the patrician requirements to gain the opifex rank. this would PREVENT anyone not already a citizen from becoming an Opifex. That i do not support and never will. This rank was never intended to be for citizens alone, and i will strongly oppose any move to make it so, which this proposal does.

[Tom Paine]

tBP, the way this awards it remains the same - I am not changing, if you read the text of the Bill, the requirements for becoming Opifex at all (I might add I haven't expressed support for the other Bill at all); just the rank that it grants. The requirements for it remain Burgensis-level, not Miles level, requirements; the Miles is a reward granted, not something tied to requirements, in this case. The requirements for Miles would therefore change, without it having to be written into the Constitution, to add "or gaining the rank of Opifex, which bypasses all other requirements". You are fixated on having to meet the requirements for Mileshood to gain the rank; I feel that this fixation has led you to neglect the fact that I am expressly not requiring that they meet such criterion, only the present criterion of the Burgensis requirements.

To rapidly summarise, one does not need to follow your rubric in the last paragraph; one does not need to make the gaining of Miles through Opifex meet the same requirements as the gaining of Miles through other means. I retain, and have not changed, this wording: "but must also meet the criteria to become a Burgensis."

[Elrond]

I am strongly against the proposal - people should become citizens before they become Patricians - whatever the requirements for the opifex rank are.

[Halie Satanus]

Growing up in Norf london i have only a passing relationship with the English language but i read 'confer' as to 'bestow upon as a gift, favor, honor, etc'.

No one has to accept a gift, so if they wish to have their access to parliament and the Sermininthingy removed all is well and good.

Why confuse the issue with adding a step up a ladder some don't want to climb in the first place??.

No i don't support this at all.

If the nominee was not already a Burgensis the rank is conferred if they pass and choose to accept.

This i would support.

[Tom Paine]

An acquiantance no more than passing: confer means to grant, and it has no optional implications:

1. [with obj.] grant (a title, degree, benefit, or right): the Minister may have exceeded the powers conferred on him by Parliament.

(I love the OED being online )

But since HS thinks the Miles thing is pointless, I'll drop that now:

v1.1

Opifex

To qualify as an Opifex, the nominee must have served the Total War Centre or Total War Community with exceptional input to any of the boards or mods in any capacity other than that of a Staff Officer. A member of any Rank is eligible to become an Opifex, but must also meet the criteria to become a Burgensis. His nomination must also be seconded by an elected member of the Consilium Burgensum.


Qualifying nominees shall have their nomination posted in the Camera Proponentum and will be moved to vote as per the procedure in Section 2 Article 3. Once moved to they shall be voted upon for a period of one week and require a two-third majority of non-abstaining votes to achieve the Rank. If the nominee was not already a Burgensis, this rank shall also be conferred upon them if they pass and so choose. A nominee who fails to pass his vote is not eligible to re-nominated until three months have passed.

Supporters: Halie Satanus [Miles]; deRougemont[Miles]; Leonidas the Lion [Burgensis]

[Halie Satanus]

The same OED that spells 'Pheonix' Phoenix?? reliable?? no.

Confer;

1. to consult together; compare opinions; carry on a discussion or deliberation.
–verb (used with object)
2. to bestow upon as a gift, favor, honor, etc.: to confer a degree on a graduate.
3. Obsolete. to compare.



Oh and, Meh i support your more pedantic version.

[Tom Paine]

Which dictionary did you get that out of?

I was thinking the Complete, 2nd Edition, Revised, personally... and it spells phoenix, well, phoenix

[Halie Satanus]

Which dictionary did you get that out of?

I was thinking the Complete, 2nd Edition, Revised, personally... and it spells phoenix, well, phoenix

The Hex 'Big red dictionary of pwnage'.

I don't see it as being pedantic at all, since it can be a point of confusion.

More pedantic than my version.

[Leonidas The Lion]

I support the second proposal since people are refusing patronage but give a lot to the community I believe they should have a choice once they become opifex to be citizens.
(although I cannot understand why someone would turn down citizenship.)

[deRougemont]

I support...

the clarification of language. I don't see it as being pedantic at all, since it can be a point of confusion.

[the Black Prince]

i don't support, since its an utter waste of a time. this doesn't need to be done, it merely adds in extra words to the constitution for no other reason than to be pedantic.

[Tom Paine]

Or maybe to reconcile the situation as it should be with what the Constitution says it is, wherein an Opifex cannot not be a Burgensis?

[the Black Prince]

nowhere in the constitution is the common sense and entirely logical result produced by HS actions prohibited