Attention!: Rajput Faction Review

**bichwaa** · April 30, 2007, 08:52 AM

Being fairly conversed in Indian history, and after reviewing the Rajput Faction list and screenshots i have a few suggestions to make.

Firstly the Kyshatri warrior caste adored the use of the Khanda (even though it was a last resort weapon). I think another unit should be added, maybe a unit of soldiers who soley use the khanda and are seeking redemption for sins etc. or are a suicide unit who seek death (as they have lost all their family/property etc.) and are used as shock troops against the enemy vanguard.

Also the chakra is the oldest and most versitile of indian weapons, Hindus believed that this weapon was originally used by Vishnu, and seeing as the predominent religion of the rajputs was hinduism i guess it is just logic. They could be used in the same manner javilen men use their projectiles except these would be thrown horizontally as well as vertically. The sikhs also used these weapons off horseback and elephants, so that mode of use could also be adapted for use with the Rajputs. Heres an article regarding the chakra: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudarshana_Chakra

If the developers require any more help or would like me to review anything, i will be happy to do so.

**Sinan** · April 30, 2007, 08:58 AM

Hi bichwaa can you please post an image of a real chakra ? Thanks in advance.

**AlphaDelta** · April 30, 2007, 09:41 AM

The Kyshatri warrior caste idea is good but we already have a swordsmen unit using a rajput sword.

I like the idea of having a Chakra unit. I could make a new Chakra throwing unit using the ghandara base model. Thoughts?

**~~Miraj~~** · April 30, 2007, 10:43 AM

I like the idea. More variety and tactical possibilities for the Indians the better. We don't want them to be pushovers, thats for sure.

And hopefully any Indian units done can also be alloted as merc so adding great depth, diversity and immersion in the region. Although Punjabi merc warriors using our Pasthun models are a possibility.

**bichwaa** · April 30, 2007, 11:23 AM

Sure Sinan heres an image of the chakra and another image of its use in battle by the Akali Nihang Singhs. Prior to the use of this weapon by the Akali Nihang Singhs, it was thrown in the conventional manner as shown in the image where the Nihang Singh is spinning it on his finger. Upon its useage by the Akali Nihangs, the traditional method of using this weapon was still utilised but they also revolutionised its use.
It was used in a number of ways by the Akali Nihangs:
the Nihangs would throw it in the traditional way (as seen in the image) over the heads of their own lines and into the enemies (preferably from high ground). Secondly they would use it as a weapon to disrupt the enemies vanguard whilst charging the enemy line throwing it under arm or horizontally, then proceed to engage with tulwars etc.

You could implement this weapon in two ways i think. You could have units using this operate in a similar manner to the javlin men or you could create a unit that would charge the enemy lines throwing these then proceed to engage with a secondary weapon.

Also you guys have missed out the Katar! The most characteristic of indian weapons (also have posted a picture of it). It was a extension of the fist and had an armour piercing point to the blade, perfect against a heavily armoured opponent! The wielder would hold it from the cross section mounts and the blade would be positioned on the fist (imagine punching someone with one of them).

Maybe you could combine it with the Chakra throwers as a secondary weapon for skirmishes? Or if you use the charging method of using the chakras then after charging the line and throwing they could engage with katars?

PS. do you guys need help with banners for the Rajputs? I have seen images of banners and the images used were mainly of hindu deities and other images. I could create a few designs if you like, just give me the colours you would like used and ill produce them and send them to you in jpeg format

**The Mongol** · April 30, 2007, 05:16 PM

OMG, I loved the Chakra Throwers in Blue Lotus, I'd love you long time if you did these Alpha.

They're like death frisbees!

**Sinan** · April 30, 2007, 05:22 PM

Thank you for the explanation and examples bichwaa. Much appreciate it. +rep.

I have seen the Katar many times, but never saw a chakra. Interesting stuff.

**Ahiga** · April 30, 2007, 06:04 PM

The Katar would be great, except that I cannot think of any animation that would really use it successfully.

The Chakra however would be very neat to feature.

Because the Indian's don't have a kind of steadily available research, we could, I imagine, work with historical inspiration but creativity to flesh it out. For example, I like that idea:

maybe a unit of soldiers who soley use the khanda and are seeking redemption for sins etc. or are a suicide unit who seek death (as they have lost all their family/property etc.) and are used as shock troops against the enemy vanguard.

It could be a Forlorn Hope type of unit. Small unit, very high moral, wicked weapons but low armor, meant for suicide charges. Could the sword be two handed?

Also, what kind of information is there behind the Indian Longbow, for us to make it different than the Composite bow? I have heard their longbow is strong, but I don't think it's as strong or stronger than the Composite. Does it fire fast? Does it have a very long range?

Also, there's a certain stat in the EDU:

; stat_ground Combat modifiers on different ground types. From left to right
; scrub, sand, forest, snow

Is one of those the terrain type for India, and is that terrain type specific to India and nowhere else? It'd be great to have compound bows be much weaker in India because of the humidity, but I doubt it's applicable.

**bichwaa** · May 01, 2007, 01:57 AM

Yes indeed Ahiga, the Khanda was a two handed weapon. I presume you could use the animation of the zwei handers/forlon hope or dismounted gothic knights if you were going to implement them.

The indians 'Longbow' was actually called a Kaman. It wasnt made out of wood like its European counterparts. I have seen many examples and all of them were made out of metal and bent much like the parthian bow. Below is an image of a bow from north india. The Kaman due to its shape and material had much more power and range then the longbow use in europe, but it required more strength in its use (due to the metal construction and shape).

Ahiga, im not quite sure what you mean regarding the EDU?

I have no knowledge regarding modding or programming, so perhaps im not the best person to ask.
In regards to your question of terrain, in india circa 1000AD-1400AD im assuming it would primarily desert and thick jungle (perfect for ambushing trade routes/armies

)

**Ahiga** · May 01, 2007, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by bichwaa

Yes indeed Ahiga, the Khanda was a two handed weapon. I presume you could use the animation of the zwei handers/forlon hope or dismounted gothic knights if you were going to implement them.

The indians 'Longbow' was actually called a Kaman. It wasnt made out of wood like its European counterparts. I have seen many examples and all of them were made out of metal and bent much like the parthian bow. Below is an image of a bow from north india. The Kaman due to its shape and material had much more power and range then the longbow use in europe, but it required more strength in its use (due to the metal construction and shape).

Ahiga, im not quite sure what you mean regarding the EDU?

I have no knowledge regarding modding or programming, so perhaps im not the best person to ask.
In regards to your question of terrain, in india circa 1000AD-1400AD im assuming it would primarily desert and thick jungle (perfect for ambushing trade routes/armies

)

Well that would make for a great unit. I think the Hindu's should have kind of a monopoly on the sword (at least on foot) in the far east, and that maces and axes find more strength in the Ghorid rank (Though their pashtun swordsmen should be good soldiers).

I've heard about Indian Longbows being made out of metal, and it's rather surprising, but I had thought the bow gained it's strength out of the flexibility of it coupled with strength, which metal makes me think it may not be.

The Reason for the EDU is that historically Mongols had trouble in India because of the humidity making their composite bows weak. What would be great to feature is the abilities of the compound bow units being lowered (by the Stat_ground option) in the jungles of India, but that is only possible if India uses a different ground type than most other areas.

It would be unfair, for example, if because India's ground is the same as the Nile, or fertile parts of Afghanistan, that compound bowmen suck in those drier but lush areas along with the wet and lush India.

So I don't think it's really possible to feature that, unless Mirage says otherwise.

===================================================================

But basically, I'm wondering how we can make the Indian Longbow powerful but not too powerful, and different from the Composite bows. For example, I'm pretty sure it would not be armor piercing. Longbow test after longbow test shows that if you used it at anything other than a close distance, it did not pierce armor. Composite bows only can pierce armor at a closer range (Which is why we have regular range bow vs close range bows).

So what do you Indian researchers think? Were Indian Longbows able to fire very long distances? Very Fast? Or slow and powerful?

**IrAr** · May 01, 2007, 09:11 AM

He means the export_descr_unit.txt

**IrAr** · May 01, 2007, 08:17 PM

Bodkin arrows pierce armour, but I don't think the Indians used those.

**bichwaa** · May 02, 2007, 11:27 AM

Ahiga, the indian bows did utilise and could pierce armour. What you have to realise is that the majority of indian soldiers did not wear plate armour like their european counter parts. In fact the majority of them wore chain mail, as that website link you posted correctly stated.

Even the Mughals, despite wearing plate armour preferred the use of chain mail as in the blistering heat of india it was very difficult to wear and carry such weight. If solidiers did wear plate armour, it was normally just a breast and back plate to protect the vital organs. If this was the case, the enemy soldiers would simply switch from using bladed weapons and use maces to crush the armour. Most often the maces had a sharp spike at its tip on the head, so it could also be used against mailed soldiers. Would it possible to implement a code that in certain conditions (such as sunny weather) the more heavily armoured soldiers will have their movement speed reduced? Just a thought to make it more realistic.

Historically soldiers did not simply carry one weapon as seen in the Total War series, they carried a whole aresnal, 5/6 weapons. But due to programming and gameplay issues i understand that this would not be a viable option.

Regarding the indian longbow, i have seen them made from metal and wood, metal being more common throughout the middleages. The metal construction would give it characteristics of difficulty in use but imense power, the reload time would be just the same as a normal bow (or perhaps slightly longer due to the strength required for the drawback). The wooden bows had similar characteristics to the parthian bows. Im not sure on which type of bow you would use.

Any progress with the chakra throwers or khanda wielding troops?

Originally Posted by IrAr

Bodkin arrows pierce armour, but I don't think the Indians used those.

Arrow types similar to the bodkin arrows were used, and could pierce armour. Not sure if they were called bodkins though

**Ahiga** · May 02, 2007, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by bichwaa

Ahiga, the indian bows did utilise and could pierce armour. What you have to realise is that the majority of indian soldiers did not wear plate armour like their european counter parts. In fact the majority of them wore chain mail, as that website link you posted correctly stated.

That's true, and mail is well noted to be weak against arrows. I hope you understand my skepiticsm. I've heard the 'pierces armor' trait being applied to any number of bows, and so far I've only found that at a close distance does it truly do so (Never from afar), and in a test with the longbow vs the composite bow (English longbow however) on a program about the Moghuls, both pierced metal armor at a close distance, the composite a bit better than the longbow.

The reason I am looking for another trait of the Indian longbow is that there is no way any bow should gain the armor piercing abilities at a long range. Neither Composite (Whether turk or mongol), English Longbow (KoJ Longbowmen) or Indian longbowmen can gain it, or we would see a monumental unbalance where an archer unit can whittle away at those with armor like a machine gun, as was the case in Vanilla. Those with AP are going to be trading distance for AP, having a much closer distance (something like from 160 to 55 or 70) and will not likely be unbalanced.

What I would love to do is have the fire arrows of archers (And horse archers, if they can get them) be made into bodkin, or AP, arrows, and be of a limited number. Or even better, I'd prefer for distance to effect the damage. But these both aren't possible, so what we are left with is AP or No AP, and possibly editing the descr_projectile file to have some arrows specific to units of a certain area. Some of the codes we can add there may help us make an arrow specific to the Hindi bows.

**~~removeduser_426582376423734~~** · May 02, 2007, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Ahiga

and in a test with the longbow vs the composite bow (English longbow however) on a program about the Moghuls, both pierced metal armor at a close distance, the composite a bit better than the longbow.

Mughal empire, on the History channel by any chance?

**Ahiga** · May 02, 2007, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Shyam Popat

Mughal empire, on the History channel by any chance?

Yeah. I know, I know. Lol, History channel.

I've taken to what they say with a grain of salt, but my opinion had been that there's just too much ambiguity about the power of the longbow. The fact that at least with the English one, it's not at all clear whether or not it was able to pierce armor at a distance, I figure it only did at closer ranges.

It would be grand if the Hindu Longbow could get a major edge over the Composite in the Humid atmosphere of India, and I think one solution is to have the Hindu's arrow not be effected by rain, and to somehow make rainfall a lot more likely in the summer of India, representing the monsoons.