A Christian government?

[Last Roman]

I've often heard from religious fundamentalists that the US was founded as a Christian nation and thus should have Christian based laws.

In the Constitution, the Judeo-Christian God isn't mentioned once, but references a "creator."

Then there is Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli stating that:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Another fine example is when Benjamin Franklin wanted a prayer before every meeting of the constitutional convention, the members voted no!

And of course, there is the fact that some of our founding fathers weren't Christian, but Deists, Thomas Jefferson being the most famous example, and George Washington hardly went to church.

[wilting]

Religious fundamentalists aren't exactly the type to be concerned with the facts of the matter. They are only interested in promoting their own agenda.

[LSJ]

Its not that the US was intended as a Christian nation but that it is one. By that I mean nothing bad, but that because there is a Christian majority, the politicians who have a similar religion have this "connection" to the voters, which vastly increases their likelihood of being elected versus a Muslim man of better ability. It happens everywhere around the world. It is rare that the people will vote for someone who is a different religion when there is someone of the same religion with equal or similar policies. Because the majority of the gov't and the people are Christian, things like "God bless America" get bound into the system. Plus there are many more hardcore Christians in the US than the UK by comparison. The country's policies do not seem to be based on religion directly, but it gets intertwined in such a way that it appears that the country is a Christian land.

[Last Roman]

The country's policies do not seem to be based on religion directly, but it gets intertwined in such a way that it appears that the country is a Christian land.

But you do get stuff like the government blocking gay marriage because the Bible defines marriage as between a man and woman or attempts to make abortion illegal.

[Feliks]

Ah yes, the good ol' Treaty of Tripoli. The United States had so many treaties with Tripoli and the surrounding nations (The Barbary Powers) that I wouldn't be surprised what found its way into the numerous treaties which we were forced to buy and that were then often broken afterwards.

The rulers of these countries (well, more like Pirate-States) were so eccentric and power hungry that the U.S. would have probably say anything to keep them off their backs for a few years. So I'm not sure how valid that evidence is.

But I do agree that the nation was founded to not have a government based on anyone religion, and in reality enlightenment era philosophers had more of an impact on the ideology behind the Deceleration of Independence and the later Constitution.

[Tom Paine]

Feliks, I find it unlikely that it was simply a lie - it was in fact an idea repeated in, while not official documents, letters and diaries of many of the Founding Fathers; the USA is not and was not, unlike (say) the UK, a Christian nation in terms of government, but only in terms of populace.

[Feliks]

Feliks, I find it unlikely that it was simply a lie - it was in fact an idea repeated in, while not official documents, letters and diaries of many of the Founding Fathers; the USA is not and was not, unlike (say) the UK, a Christian nation in terms of government, but only in terms of populace.

I'm not saying its a lie, but all of these treaties were written under the threat of war on the fledgling nation's merchant shipping ( the U.S. didn't even have a navy at the time to defend itself) by a country which had a habit of selling captured Americans into slavery. It's reasonable to assume that our diplomats may have tried to be overnice to Tripoli by overemphasizing a few points which may have avoided war.

I've heard many cite this treaty as "The statement: 'The United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion' was passed unanimously by Congress and passed by the President" When it is doubtful that any significant debate occurred over that part and what it meant.

I agree that this idea has been repeated in many other documents of the times, and thus I think a much more thoughtful and complete statement on it could be presented from another source.

[Gelgoog]

I'm not saying its a lie, but all of these treaties were written under the threat of war on the fledgling nation's merchant shipping ( the U.S. didn't even have a navy at the time to defend itself) by a country which had a habit of selling captured Americans into slavery. It's reasonable to assume that our diplomats may have tried to be overnice to Tripoli by overemphasizing a few points which may have avoided war.

just to nitpick a bit, but we did go to war several times with the barbery states. as evident in the marine corp hyme. "to the shores of tripoli". this when the rest of the european nations were being blackmailed and payed huge sums, the thought being made to pay to pass, enraged the american public.

[Feliks]

just to nitpick a bit, but we did go to war several times with the barbery states. as evident in the marine corp hyme. "to the shores of tripoli". this when the rest of the european nations were being blackmailed and payed huge sums, the thought being made to pay to pass, enraged the american public.

We went to war twice, but only after people (like Jefferson and William Eaton) got fed up with these treaties that were quite simply just tribute to pirates, but we did pay outlandish sums of money and even built ships for them before that. At the time of this treaty we were still set on not getting involved in a war on the other side of the world.

[Francisco Montana]

The United States was founded on Judeo-Christian philosophy. The fact that 80% of the nation claims to be Christian would suggest we are indeed a Christian nation.

But is our constitution some sort of seudo-Christian-Shiria like document? Not at all.

[Tom Paine]

It was founded on a nonChristian philosophy - to say it was founded on a Christian philosophy would suggest the laws reflected that, especially the constitution. This is hardly the case; the US was founded on an Enlightenment humanist philosophy, founded more on the Greeks than a famous semitic from Bethlehem.

[Thanatos]

I dunno... The Constitution explicitly states that all of our rights are derived from our Creator. I think that's pretty obvious.

[Ledhead]

I dunno... The Constitution explicitly states that all of our rights are derived from our Creator. I think that's pretty obvious.

Allah...?

[wilting]

Allah...?

"Our creator" could be interpreted as the natural laws that govern our universe. It's a fairly meaningless statement. I think it's a fairly stupid one as well. Rights are blantently derived from human made law and the will and ability to enforce them.

[William the Bastard]

Well even if the constitution and whatnot (I am not that upto date with the American political system) did not say anything about God or that fella Jesus It is still a country founded by religionists of the Christian persuasion. Therefore surely it would end up Christian any way. Also when it was written was not everyone a Christian in America? Why bother writing anything about the obvious? Yes I know most laws are obvious so please do not attack that sentence. What I am saying is that everyone went to church on a Sunday and was brought up with that lifestyle so it came naturally. As opposed to law where most people don't go to a court every Sunday do they.

[Last Roman]

I dunno... The Constitution explicitly states that all of our rights are derived from our Creator. I think that's pretty obvious.

yes, a creator, it does not specify which creator.

[William the Bastard]

yes, a creator, it does not specify which creator.

The one that they all believed in at the time it was written?

[Last Roman]

The one that they all believed in at the time it was written?

but that's the point, they (the founding fathers) weren't all Christian, thus there is no one particular creator, or else they would've simply put God.

[William the Bastard]

but that's the point, they (the founding fathers) weren't all Christian, thus there is no one particular creator, or else they would've simply put God.

I had hear that some were Free Masons but
1) I am not too sure of this as fact
2) Like everyone else (due to them being secret and all) I don't know much about the Masons.
Other than Free Masonry and other assorted Christian cults like the Mormons or Quakers who else were they?

[William the Bastard]

or else they would've simply put God.

Perhaps that was the hidden choice? In that the US was the first (sort of) modern democracy and so they wrote the law accordingly. I doubt that at the time they ever thought that Muslims, Hindus etc would ever be really living there but with this clause then it truly means that it is an open democracy for whatever religious background people come from.