Best non spartan hoplite army in Hellas

[Maccabee]

Which faction do you think had the best hoplite army -except Lacedaemon-of the hellenic world before 371bc?

[Racer X]

The Lokrians and Argives supposedly had somewhat elite, or at least better trained hoplites. Probably the Thespians too.

I wouldn't count out Thebes or Athens of course, though.

[Sir Francis]

Athens had by far the largest hoplite force, but even before Leuktra the Thebans had a very fine reputation as hoplites.

In some periods the Argives were very good as well. The same goes for the Syracusans.

Several states had epilektoi (Elis, Argos, Phlious, Arkadia (eparitoi) etc.) all of which would have been very good but most of these were after 371.

[Sir Francis]

Racer, ooc, why Lokris?

[Snevets]

Because they look cool...

The lokrians did have a similar culture to the Spartans though- perhaps if they had the Eurotas a similar system would've developed.

I would cast my vote for Argos in 5th and Thebes in the 4th.

[Sir Francis]

Well, he said better trained, not 'cool'.

Where have you seen a depiction of a Lokrian hoplite (outside of comic books etc)?

Why do you think they had a culture similar to the Spartans?

[Praetorian Captain]

Personally outside of the Spartans i would have to say the Athenians; after all they were not only good on the field but they were strong in siege both attacking and defending a city.

Though don't get me wrong the several others are in the runnig like Argos and Thebes.

[icydawgfish]

I would have to say thebes because they had a fairly large army and they had very well disciplined professional troops

[Racer X]

The Lokrians, if I recall correctly, had a reputation for being more "warlike" than a lot of other Hellenes, possibly as a devotion to Ajax the Lesser. This doesn't say anything about their training, probably just more about their reputation. I don't even think they all looked as 'cool' as a lot of people think though, even if double helmets were something of a Central exclusive, they certainly wouldn't have been on every hoplite.

Agreed on the Syracusans, too.

[Sir Francis]

I'm interested in this Lokrian syndrome of the Classical period.

I've seen it crop up on the Net, and I'm wondering whether it's another example of modern myth-making, exacerbated by people stating facts left right and centre and then ignoring requests for sources (irresponsible behaviour imo).

The conventional wisdom among academics is that the Lokrians were quite primitive and provided chiefly light troops and some light cavalry to their allies on occasion, though perhaps provided some heavy infantry in 480/79.

But sometimes these things have a basis in truth. Thus I ask any 'Lokrians' to track down sources differentiating Locrians from other Greeks militarily.

So far, my own research has found nothing whatsoever...

[Snevets]

I say that they were of a similar culture just because they were both Dorians. As for the popular interest in the Lokrians it's because some of their cities were present alongside the Spartans at Thermopylae.

Light troops and cavalry? Not on the mainland. In Italy cavalry was predominant, and the Lokrian colonists had their cavalry arms. On the mainland, they were hoplite focused, like anyone else- particularly so for any Dorian. They were a bit backward in terms of equipment- generally we've thrown all our six century helmet styles at them (double plumes, early corinthians etc), but not necessarily inferior warriors. According to some sources they left a place in the file for Ajax the Locrian (Ajax the lesser of the Trojan War, the one who died in a shipwreck) so clearly they were a more traditional people. Most Dorians deified their heroes so it's not that out of the ordinary I suppose.

[Sir Francis]

Hoplite-based? No, they were more along the lines of Acharnania and Aetolia - West Central Greek. They had hoplites but not well organised and relied chiefly on light troops (peltastai and psiloi) and cavalry - partly due to primitivism and partly due to terrain.

Thucydides [Lokrian cavalry]:

"...ships were furnished by the Corinthians, Megarians... and cavalry by the Boeotians, Phocians, and Locrians."

"Some made for Delium... pursued and cut down in particular by the cavalry, composed partly of Boeotians and partly of Locrians,"

Xenophon [Lokrian lights]:

"And of light troops also there was a great number with the party of the Corinthians; for the Ozolian Locrians, Malians, and Acarnanians were with them."

"The Lacedaemonians being in the rear, the Locrians followed after them throwing stones and javelins."

"The Locrians no longer followed in their rear, they threw missiles upon them from the heights upon their right."

Can you find a single reference to Lokrian hoplites in the Classical age? I'm not saying they didn't exist, but they were certainly secondary to lights and horsemen.

Also, Lokris paid tribute to the Persians and fought for Xerxes.

[Racer X]

and thus I withdraw my vote to the Lokrians, and will say that Athens had the strongest hoplite army overtime simply for its size.

[Quinctius Cincinnatus]

Cool sir Francis you are a real hoplite - expert!! I am quite amazed with the amount of things you know...

For me all hoplites are cool, but from what I have read so far, the Argives almost matched the Spartans. They will be the first faction I'll play.

Quinctius.

[Praetorian Captain]

Athens Hoplite army was not only large, but it did have quality to it as well. Most Athenians of the Hoplite class of citizen would be in good physical shape (granted not like the Soartans or Thebans but decent enough). After all children of this class were also inspected by their fathers who could accept or reject the child; if rejected the child was left on some side street to die (but they usually ended up being adopted by families who either had no children or took pity on them).At the age of seven the boy went to school (unlike his Spartan counterpart who started the agoge); side not only children of the hoplite citizen class could afford to send them to school, at this time young men of merchant families where by this time begining to eanr their sea legs. At school he learned writing, arithmatics, music, poetry, and gymnastics, later on public speaking was also added around the fifith century B.C. This would go on until he began his military training at the age of 18, after this he went to work on a trade and worked on his military skills on his free time (richer citizens could afford more time to train making them better soldiers then those who did not have as much money as them while those who were merchants were only improving their naval skills). As he was working his job he also began his political career in the democratic government at Athens.

This is one of the reasons i believ that outside of the Spartans the Athenians had the finest army in Hellas. Now if i could find info on Argive or Theban Training methods i might be swayed, so if anyone can give me a link i would much appreciate it.

My info comes from a book entitled "World History: The Greeks". If this is a bad soucre tell me and i will withdraw what i have stated above.

[Sir Francis]

Thanks QC - I appreciate the comment. (Studying such things at university and occasionally getting paid to write articles (if in lesser journals (for now)) helps!)

Yes, the Argives in some periods were very tough (as were the Arcadians, thus most Peloponnesians (apart from the rather poor Corinthians) were good hoplites).

Their best period was the late Archaic (just before the Persian invasion) when they struggled with Sparta for dominance of the Peloponnese. later they were not so good...

About the Athenians. Again it depends on period.

In Archaic times the Athenians were generally a tough basic stock. But as she grew more wealthy (following in Corinth's footsteps) more and more of her citizens became fat and lazy (at least those living in Athens as opposed to those in other Attic towns such as Acharnaea (see Aristophanes' play of the same name for how the tougher agriculturists viewed the 'city softies'!))

By the time of the Peloponnesian War a pandemos would include Solepides the fat shoemaker, Cashidros the balding banker and Effeminates the very scared barber's apprentice, along side more obviously heroic types.

[Praetorian Captain]

Well of course those in the city would at later times. Those in the country hwoever would have skill, and like i said those of merchant families would still have some decent fighting prowess (granted they would be a little short handed, due to more and more wanting to wallow in their wealth then be prepared for war.)

[olvios]

The Theban sacred band was the best hoplite amry unit ever to see the battlefield other then spartan elites.The sacred band actually surpassed even that in hopite combat. The Sacred Band under Pelopidas fought the Spartans at Tegyra in 375 BC, vanquishing an army that was at least three times their number. It was also responsible for the victory of Leuctra in 371 BC, called by Pausanias the most decisive battle ever fought by Greeks against Greeks.Only the invention of the sarissa phallanx defeated it and that under the command of Alexander the Great.

[Dannath]

Yeah, I think Thebes too.

[Praetorian Captain]

Every state had it's finest soldiers (even Sparta in the form of the Hippeis).
So in a way every state had some time where they could have been considered the finest army in Greece (course the Spartans had the longest running time).