Discussion: The Zengid Sultanate

[Ahiga]

Summary

We may change the name from a Dynastic one to a Non Dynastic one. The Emirate of Damascus, for instance, or the Atabeg of Syria.


The Zengids will represent the more stereotypical Middle Eastern Army, and also represent more of the Mamluke/Late Ayyubid tradition of a reliance on cavalry.

While elsewhere their recruitment will be like everyone else, in the cities of Aleppo, Damascus, and Mosul and these only they will be able to recruit traditionally castle-specific units.

Strengths
Strong Cavalry across the board (Light, Medium, Heavy)
Ghulam Cavalry
Siege Abilities (From Aleppo, as was mentioned)
Ability to recruit Castle-units from 3 main cities.

Weaknesses
Poorer Infantry ratio-wise to their neighbors (They will have some decent infantry, but it will not be enough to be relied upon entirely. Or as decent as their neighbors)
*Possibly* Regional reliance in recruitment [No turcomans in Mosul, no kurds in Aleppo or Damascus, for instance]

Zengid Sultanate Unit Concepts



Barracks

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'm assuming basically that the Ahdath of Syria are fulfilled by the AOR Middle East units. It'd be silly to have a tier 1 Ahdath spearmen in the Zengid roster, when their city AOR can recruit Tier 4 Lamellar-armored spearmen.

Barracks 1:

• 1) Summary:

• 2) Description:

• 3) Armor:

• 4) Arms:

• 5) Visuals:

Barracks 2: Sabarbahah Militia [Mesh would be borrowed from Egypt]

• 1) Summary: Lightly armored militiamen with wicked polearms that are very capable against armor or cavalry, but not absorbing a cavalry charge.
• 2) Description: The Sabarbahah was a two-and-a-half meter long infantry polearm, the blade approximately 17 cms wide and 50 cms long. Essentially a Glaive. It may look a bit short in staff in the picture, but I would give it the same sort of length as vanilla halberds.
• 3) Armor: Quilted Full length Kaftans or clothing, with turbans. Small forearm/elbow shield.
• 4) Arms: Sabarbahah Polearm
• 5) Visuals:

Barracks 3: Syrian Spearmen

• 1) Summary: Medium-armored spearmen with shield and spear

• 2) Description:

• 3) Armor:

• 4) Arms: Spear and Shield

• 5) Visuals:

Barracks 4: Kurdish Swordsmen [Mesh would be borrowed from Egypt]

• 1) Summary: Kurdish Swordsmen

• 2) Description: Medium infantry, less capable of holding a battle line but more capable of melee combat. Something you should keep on the flanks and move onto the enemies side, not something that should be a part of the main line.

• 3) Armor: Mail and Helmets. Medium metal shield

• 4) Arms: Long straight sword.

• 5) Visuals:

Barracks 5:

• 1) Summary:

• 2) Description:

• 3) Armor:

• 4) Arms:

• 5) Visuals:

Archery Range

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Archery Range 1: Possibilities:

• Turkoman Foot Archer - We may have too many of them already, but it's a reasonable addition for the Zengids.
• Ahdath Bowmen - To help give some diversity, these would just be civilian bowmen, a step up above AOR ones but still not very good. Helmets and clothing, some without shirt (There's a concept art with this)
• Tribal Skirmishers - Foot javelineers, whether Turkish, Kurdish, or Bedouin.
• Levy Crossbowmen - To help give the Zengid's a different feel, perhaps we can makethe Syrian Crossbowmen more armored, and the Levy crossbowmen very lightly armored [Just in cloth and such]

Archery Range 2: Al-Ashair Archers [Mesh could be shared with Egypt, or the KoJ's Maronite Archers]

• 1) Summary: Guerilla-like Archer unit. Can hide well, fight in melee alright, but is not well armored. Composite bow and sword or mace.

• 2) Description:

• 3) Armor:
  • "Dress would a 3/4 length coat and a turban." - Should be a mixture of Turcoman style dress, and something a bit more Arabic. Not the bedouin robes, however. For coloring, look down under General Information.
• 4) Arms
  • Sword and Composite bow. I'd say maybe a short straight sword.

Archery Range 3: Syrian Crossbowmen [Should omit until we have the time for a new mesh]

• 1) Summary: Armored Crossbowmen some with light Mail and a shield (One that sits on the back A'la the Pavise, but I'd prefer if it could be swung onto the arm to use in melee.)

• 2) Description:

• 3) Armor: Mail underneath regular clothing, Turcoman hat intermixed with more helmet-like options. Shield is a tall one with a flat bottom and a curved top.

• 4) Arms: Crossbow, straight sword

Stables

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

We could go with a Seljuk like system, I think: At the loss of some extra infantry, the Zengids could gain a few more cavalry. So maybe while having 4 melee infantry, they get instead of the typical 5, maybe 6 or 7 cavalry.

Stables 1: RB/CB Turkomans. [Mesh is already done]

Stables 2: Tribal Arab/Bedouin Lancers [Meshes already ingame]

• 1) Summary: Light Lancers of the Arab tradition, with little/no armor

• 2) Description: This unit could easily re-use the Tribal Arab and Bedouin mesh used by the Abbasids. If not, then it would be in the same sort of inspiration, and should mix Bedouin Arab with more tribal arab.

• 3) Armor: Light mail, but mostly quilted/padded/plain cloth.

• 4) Arms: A light cane Lance, straight sword, and small shield.

Stables 3: Kurdish Cavalry [Mesh would be borrowed from Egypt]

• 1) Summary: Medium melee cavalry, unable to charge well at all but quite efficient at close quarters combat.
• 2) Description: Kurds were an integral part of the Zengid Army, fighting as close quarters cavalry with more armor then tribal/bedouin arabs. The unit would wield sword, shield, and be armored relatively well.
• 3) Armor: I'd say Light mail with some wearing a light hauberk of lamellar or scale.
• 4) Arms: Long straight sword and round medium shield (metal or metal with leather covering, or just wood with leather covering).

Stables 4: Medium Ghulams (Sword and Spear, or Mace and spear) [Mesh is already done]

Stables 5: Ghulam Elite Cavalry (Heaviest Ghulams) [Mesh is already done]

• 1) Summary:

• 2) Description:

• 3) Armor:

• 4) Arms:

• 5) Visuals:

Optional units:

At Stables 3 or 4: A light-medium or medium Horse archer. Zengids were very cavalry centric and would need an upper class Horse archer. Seems like Syrian Ghulams tended to fight in melee, not with the bow, so I would make them medium tribal turks.

General Information on the Zengids/Syrians
"You can go wild with the paints - brocade or bright silks being common with colours of dark or light blue, turquoise, brown, tan, red, green or black or indeed nearly any colour. Coats could also be highly decorated with geometric, floral or arabesque patterns."

"Heath in The Armies of the Dark Ages describes Arab clothing, all be it from an earlier period, as being brightly coloured - scarlet, red, blue, yellow, green and white, sometimes stripped, with turbans most commonly white."

- http://www.geocities.com/nwgrant/tony/syrians.html

Unfiltered Information

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Lengthier Summary with Historic Info

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Mirage and I have been speaking and we came up with an idea that would bring our setting back a few years, from 1175 (Saladin's seizure of Damascus, a year after the death of his master Nur-Al-Din) to probably 1170. The reason for this is in the presence of a man who was big as life in the Crusades, who without him Saladin would have been nothing, and yet who was poised before his death to go to war with Saladin. Nur-Al-Din.

While we are hammering out the historical details, to make sure it's applicable, the idea is that rather than setting us at the point when Saladin had taken over Damascus and through it the general sovereignty of Syria (He would take, or politically control Aleppo and Mosul in the next decade) following Nur-Al-Din's death, we'll be setting is as Nur-Al-Din lived and breathed and eyed Saladin ruling in South as a rival who needed to be crushed.

We were remiss to overlook this very important and very interesting faction. Before his death, Nur-Al-Din and Saladin effectively had a cold war going, both realizing that there would be an inevitable war as Saladin (Once a subordinate to Nur-Al-Din) wished to not be beneath the Sovereignty of Nur-Al-Din, and Nur-Al-din wished to unite all the Arab World against Outremer. It was only his death which spared this from happening, and it was only the 'insurrection' of Saladin which may have prevented Nur-Al-Din from bringing the full might of the Arabs against the Crusaders.

Basically, instead of having two minor factions of Mosul and Aleppo, with Saladin having a foothold in Syria at Damascus, we'll be having a major Syrian Empire standing off both against the Crusaders as well as Saladin. We may still have Mosul as a Minor Kingdom which sits as a client State (Vassal, or Protectorate) to Nur-Al-Din's kingdom. I have to see the political situation of Syria at this time to decide.

Their Military: Research and Raw Unit Concepts
From God's Warriors (An Osprey Book by Dr. Helen Nicholson and Dr. David Nicolle) I paraphrased some of it though. But all the info is from them.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

• As Saladin's authority spread, so regional armies grew up under various provincial governors. Their recruitment often differed from that of the Sultan's own forces. Aleppo relied primarily on Turcoman tribes such as the Yuruk, Damascus recruiting Arab tribesmen from Centra Syria, and Kurds playing a prominent role around Mosul. Nevertheless, the core of most such forces remained slave-recruited mamlukes.

What does this mean? It means that under Saladin, the Syrian Cities would come to adopt their own personal Armies, lending credit to the fact that Nur-Al-Din might experience the same regional diversity in armies. Mamlukes remained a common and core feature, though small. This also shows us the three most important troops of Nur-Al-Din: Tribal Arabs, Kurds, and Turks.

• Second in Numerical importance were the Kurds who fought as cavalry and archers, though apparently they were not using the horse-archery tactics of their Turkish Rivals.

• The most successful among the small armies that emerged from the fragmenting Seljuk empire was that of Zangi and his son Nur Al din. Its leadership was Turkish and Kurdish. It's troops were mainly turcoman horse-archers and Kurdish close-combat cavalry. Most were professional tawashi cavalryman, and they were backed up by Bedouin Arab Auxiliaries.

These two show us that (1) Kurds fought as close-combat cavalry. (2) They played a major part in Nur-Al-Din's armies, along with the Turks.

• A third important ethnic element was the Arabs. There had been a resurgence of nomadism in northern Syria following a Byzantine Military rival of the 11th century. But although these Arab nomads were rich in horses they had few archers, fighting instead with spear or sword.

• The Mutatawi'ah or religious volunteers often served for very short periods, but they could be quite effective, especially when harassing enemy stragglers.

Basically the Ghazi infantry of the West in my opinion.

• Ahdath: The Urban Militias, recruited from the poorer sections of city populations. Its main duty was to police a city or town, though it could also fight alongside the regular army in an emergency. Palestinian Ahdath may have included Jews when under the Fatimids, but it is uncertain if they did under Saladin.

• Rajjalah Infantry: It says nothing except the often despised and were local.

• Aleppians were well known for their sense of humor. When the Turks besieged them, they wrapped a bale of silk around their strongest tower and told them they were giving it a headache. Aleppo was also famous for it's miners and siege engines in Saladin's day.

Perhaps Aleppo can produce quality siege engines.

• Early 12th century Damascus was a military state dedicated to jihad against the invading Europeans. Its army consisted of Turks, Kurds, Arab Bedouin, urban militia, and religious volunteers...
  The rulers of Damascus maintained close links with the region's local leaders and the men could be ordered into Syria if a Crusader threat loomed.

Helps us both explain that Nur-Al-Din's army would contain these three critical ethnicities plus local militia and religious troops, along with justifying the idea that each city might recruit a different bunch of units.

From http://www.geocities.com/nwgrant/tony/syrians.html

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

• Syrian light horse can either be Bedouin Arabs armed with a light cane lance and shield or Turkoman horse archers armed with a composite bow. Horse archers might carry up to 100 arrows in quivers, bow case and even in boots. Typical garb was a topcoat with a right over left flap. A variety of caps and turbans were worn.

Pretty straightforward these are Turks, since it said the Arab Bedouin were poor of bow. Close Bow and Regular bow Light Turkomans.

• The Syrian cities provided provincial regiments (called askars) usually under the command of the local autonomous governor or prince (called variously a atabeg, malik or amir). Amirs might also have a personal retinues. Soldiers could be slave soldier call ghulams or freemen. The ghulams were raised from a young age to be soldiers and were give wages or property.
  
  Syrian cavalry seemed to have been armed with lance, sword and shield but usually not with a bow. Armour might consist of quilted al-Qutun garment and/or lamellar or mail or scale corsets.

Here we've got an interesting cavalry unit similar to the Faris of the Abbasids. Could use a similar mesh, most likely!

• The Spear here represent the Syrian city militia called the Ahdath. They were formed from the local Arab population, usually weren't well armed and served in the vicinity of their city. Heath in The Armies of the Dark Ages describes Arab clothing, all be it from an earlier period, as being brightly coloured - scarlet, red, blue, yellow, green and white, sometimes stripped, with turbans most commonly white.
  
  DBM army lists classify the Ahdath as a Horde, although sometimes their ranks could be made up of ex-military men, and in Aleppo and Damascus they were the official maintainers of public order.

While the Ahdath could be fulfilled by the AOR arabs, I think we could also have them be their own units. Basically, superior Militia units due to the amount of cities in the Syrian Empire (Their biggest three provinces. Mosul, Damascus, and Aleppo, are each Cities!)

There is an interesting Ahdath unit in the back of this, in quilted white, with what looks like a halberd-spear:


We could use the weapon used by the Rajput 2h axemen, and this unit -could- perhaps work in a spear wall, if we feel it's accurate (I like the idea of that, making this unit into one which can only really do a good job in narrow city streets making a wall of its polearms)

• DBM army lists identify the Psiloi as the Al-Ashair. The Al-Ashair were semi-nomadic Syro-Palestinian or Lebanese Druse who were armed with bow or sling. Dress would a 3/4 length coat and a turban. Instead of creating Al-Ashair I've used the dismounted horse archers from Italeri set for my Psiloi although the figure waving a sword and carrying a bow could be easily converted to an Al-Ashair.

Really this is already the foot seljuk, but I liked the name. An interesting idea would be a 'foot' version of the Close Bow. Because I remember seeing that the Arab Tribesmen were used for skirmishing, ambushing, and general raiding tactics, it might be an interesting unit to have as a guerilla fighter.

Someone who can hide in many places (Not everywhere), who you can put up in hilly terrain and can have open up on an enemy with a close bow (AP) before running in and attacking with short sword and shield. Hiding on a valley's flank, it'd open up as the enemy enters and passes. With a short range, they should be able to get off at least 1 volley before the enemy cavalry reaches them (maybe 2), and at least 2 (maybe 3) volleys before the enemy infantry could reach them.

This is so it's not merely a crappier archer to be put in the first few tiers till you get to seljuk foot archers, but it's a unique unit. We'd have to test to make sure it's not unbalanced.

Concept Art

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_139_figure_1.htm

The Cavalry: Great idea for the Syrian Askar. Medium cavalryman like the Faris Lancer, save for a shorter lance and sidearm. There could also be a heavier version, with scale or lamellar instead of quilted hauberk on top of mail.
The Light Horse: Seljuk, Duh.
The Spearmen: Because of the ruggedness, I think it's an Arab tribesmen. Could be a Medium Spearmen.
The Auxilia: Could be a potential Kurdish Swordsmen Unit. Round Shield, light mail and a short sword. Or could be an Arab tribesmen on foot.
The Psiloi: Nothing Special here. Could be the Al-Ashair.

Polished Unit Concepts

All Concepts are WIP. This is not the Final Roster, nor is it certain at all that they will be used, or used as they are designed.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Summary

We have a few options for the Syrian Empire. What I have read so far deals with Medieval Syria and not specifically but not excluding Nur-Al-Din.

Historically it sounds like Nur-Al-Din's army was mostly Turkoman and Kurdish cavalry (The former long range, the latter close combat). However, that's pretty boring, and it seems that while that may have been Nur-Al-Din's army, those of Mosul were influenced by the Kurds, and those of Damascus by the Arabs. Nur-Al-Din historically would die in 4 years, and may die relatively soon after the campaign begins, so it's not unfeasible a general would opt to shed the Turkish traditions for something new, especially when Saladin took these areas, during and after his death, the local governors would adopt army styles different from the Sultan.

Hence, we can be creative with them and follow some possible themes:

• Regional Theme

Damascus, Aleppo, and Mosul all have a different recruitment makeup, each with a troop influence: Aleppo = Turks | Damascus = Arabs | Mosul = Kurds. We can adhere to accuracy or get inventive. For instance, Kurds were said to be more armored than Arabs, so Mosul supplies heavy close combat cavalry and heavy swordsmen with some archers. Damascus supplies Arab Light cavalry and infantry. Aleppo supplies Turkish Archers and Cavalry.

• Paramount Historical Accuracy Theme

We go with what it's written out for Nur-Al-Din. Close Combat Kurds, Turkish Horse Archers, Arab Light Cavalry with spear and sword revolving around a core of Mamluks. Recruitable in all cities like the other faction's units. Ahdath City Militia and Religious volunteers fulfill the infantry role.

• New theme

Suggest something for us! So long as it has some sort of basis in history, and it sounds exciting and interesting for these guys, we'll give it good consideration. It can be a unit, a general theme, a concept art, whatever you want to pitch.

I'll be reading a book (The Crusades Through Arab Eyes by Amin Maalouf) which has a critical chapter on Nur-Al-Din and Saladin tonight and tomorrow to make certain this is true, and give a better representation of this period.

Sources

http://www.geocities.com/nwgrant/tony/syrians.html

[Yoda Twin]

Sounds interesting, would be an awsome faction but is it to late because of the map?

[Ahiga]

Sounds interesting, would be an awsome faction but is it to late because of the map?

Thankfully it is not. The Zengid Ataberg (Probably the most aesthetically pleasing name of theirs so far) would exist in the current map's cities of Aleppo, Mosul, and I think Damascus, as well as some of the other Syrian cities. It wouldn't require any changes to the map itself, just to ownership of specific cities.

[Yoda Twin]

Are ok. So that aint that hard to mod then is it.

Yay 10th post

[Yoda Twin]

Woops double post

[Ermeni]

it should be Atabeg* not atabeRg (99% sure)

ata means forefather/father (i think)
beg means something like lord/chief

hope that someone can confirm this

[Tadzreuli]

it should be Atabeg* not atabeRg (99% sure)

ata means forefather (i think)
beg means something like lord

hope that someone can confirm this

yes, you are right !

[Ermeni]

yes, you are right !

tx

[Ahiga]

Duly noted and edited on the first post. Thanks for the correction. I might make the mistake now and again but I'm sure in the game itself they will have the Atabeg name, though it's uncertain what their ingame name will be.

[Miraj]

As I've discussed with Ahiga before, I like the idea of this faction. Pushing back the time is a matter of changing one number in the descr_strat and the official info thread. So its no big deal.

And changing the date to 1170 doesn't affect any of the other factions AFAIK.

Also I think I'd like them to be called something along these lines:

"The Zengid Sultanate"

[Ahiga]

I had an idea regarding the Askar or Syrian Cavalry.

From the information I gather that it seems like the three major cities had some independence in their activities. Not enough that Nur-Al-Din didn't control them (He had that problem with Saladin), but it seems like it's ingrained in the Syrian culture to have more regional than national/kingdom-based influences.

[On this topic: Should the Heavy Ghulams be recruitable generals with 1hp? Ghulams did play an important role in politics and this would represent it. Heavy Ghulams would be rare in most armies, and the only problem here would be that I imagine they would be stuck with the general unit for the faction.]

So I had the idea that each of the three cities could recruit a different Askar, which would be a recruitable general with their own bodyguard unit. Unless they marry into the family, they are separate of it and they themselves cannot become a prince or king.

Aleppo would have a Turkish one (Probably a Heavy Turkoman unit), Mosul a Kurd (Heavy cavalry), Damascus an Arab (Medium Cavalry, big on the spear).

The problem is that right away this gives them 3 cavalry (All suppose to be high tier, since they are recruitable general bodyguards. That means that for native cavalry, they might be best with only 2, because for comparison:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Abbasids start with 5 native Cavalry + 3 Ghulams + 2 Turkomans = 10 Cavalry total.

Zengid would have 3 Ghulams and 3 Turkomans (Close bow since they are more Turkic) = Add in the 3 Askar and that's 9 cavalry. They don't need any more Turks for Aleppo, but they could use at least 1 lower level Arab or Kurdish cavalry.

However, Abbasids will have a very strong Infantry component when it seems like the Zengid's will have very little infantry. So that's not a problem, what may be is that this might make the Zengid's get more cavalry than the Seljuks: Seljuks get 7 Native Cavalry + 3 Ghulams (They already get the turkomans).

Would it be acceptable to have that many cavalry for the Zengid? If it's not, what could be done would then be:

3 Ghulams
3 Turkomans
1 General's Bodyguard (heavy Turkoman like)
2 Arab Cavalry (Light and medium)
1 Kurdish Cavalry (Heavy) = 10 Total, as much as the Abbasids. We could make it 11 by adding another Kurdish Cavalry, or making Heavy Turkoman's recruitable as their own unit as well as a general

This would remove the idea of recruitable Askar Generals (1hp).

Edit: Also updated the frontpage (Or will in a moment) with their hypothetical or conceptualized strengths + Weaknesses. They are not the ones we are decided on but the ones I think they should have based on research.

[Randarkmaan]

Actually this faction should not have that week infantry, the Syrian cities fielded militias who were pretty well trained and well equipped. The militia force of Aleppo also appear to have been excellent siege engineers and miners and were therefore often used in offensive operations, they also had a weird sense of humour: Aleppo was once besieged by Turkish forces who employed large mangonels to throw stones against the city's fortifications, the city's garrison then tied a large piece of cotton around their largest tower (which had been hit by many rocks) and told the Turks that their bombardment had given it a headache.

[CelticPagan]

As I've discussed with Ahiga before, I like the idea of this faction. Pushing back the time is a matter of changing one number in the descr_strat and the official info thread. So its no big deal.

And changing the date to 1170 doesn't affect any of the other factions AFAIK.

Also I think I'd like them to be called something along these lines:

"The Zengid Sultanate"

Not sure I can agree with all that Mirage. Nur al Din, Saladin's Uncle, died in 1174, allowing Saladin to rise to power from his Governorship of Egypt. This would certainly effect the Ayyubids and the previous Fatimids, not to mention the whole Shi'ia/Ishmai'ilis culture of Fatimid Egypt vs. Sunni Ayyubids under Saladin's rule. Since Nur al Din's Sultanate was reduced to just Aleppo by 1175, and that fell in 1178 to Saladin, would this faction work? 1170-1174 isn't much of a time period for a factions existance in this Mod. Unless you are willing to set the time (and not sure you can even) back to 1154 when Nur al Din siezed Damascus, this faction seems more like a possible side faction best suited for a provisional Mod based on BC.

Just my 2 cents, though it's likely as not only worth 1 cent

[Ahiga]

Not sure I can agree with all that Mirage. Nur al Din, Saladin's Uncle, died in 1174, allowing Saladin to rise to power from his Governorship of Egypt. This would certainly effect the Ayyubids and the previous Fatimids, not to mention the whole Shi'ia/Ishmai'ilis culture of Fatimid Egypt vs. Sunni Ayyubids under Saladin's rule. Since Nur al Din's Sultanate was reduced to just Aleppo by 1175, and that fell in 1178 to Saladin, would this faction work? 1170-1174 isn't much of a time period for a factions existance in this Mod. Unless you are willing to set the time (and not sure you can even) back to 1154 when Nur al Din siezed Damascus, this faction seems more like a possible side faction best suited for a provisional Mod based on BC.

Just my 2 cents, though it's likely as not only worth 1 cent

Anyone's cents are good to have, for if the changes aren't made, then at least they help strengthen the argument.

I disagree that this faction isn't a good one to include. Nur Al-Din was somewhere in his 50s when he died (His early 50s, possibly), and at the time range of 1170-1173, he was hale and hearty, and he and Saladin were having a cold war which was quickly heating up. It's a perfect faction to include because of the 'you are changing history, not replaying' theme of Total War. What IF Nur Al-Din did not die of an illness/infection (I believe after an attack on the KoJ)? Wouldn't his Syrian Empire have fought Saladin's Egyptian Kingdom to decide whether Saladin retained his almost independent status or if Nur Al-din would bring him to heel. Could Outremer seize this moment and strike out at the ragged victor of such a civil war? Could Byzantium take advantage of Syria's attention southward, and strike out with Armenia against Antioch and Syria?

We can even simulate the apparent individuality of the Syrian cities, perhaps having them rebel if not governered by a highly loyal Amir of Nur Al-Din.

[CelticPagan]

Anyone's cents are good to have, for if the changes aren't made, then at least they help strengthen the argument.

I disagree that this faction isn't a good one to include. Nur Al-Din was somewhere in his 50s when he died (His early 50s, possibly), and at the time range of 1170-1173, he was hale and hearty, and he and Saladin were having a cold war which was quickly heating up. It's a perfect faction to include because of the 'you are changing history, not replaying' theme of Total War. What IF Nur Al-Din did not die of an illness/infection (I believe after an attack on the KoJ)? Wouldn't his Syrian Empire have fought Saladin's Egyptian Kingdom to decide whether Saladin retained his almost independent status or if Nur Al-din would bring him to heel. Could Outremer seize this moment and strike out at the ragged victor of such a civil war? Could Byzantium take advantage of Syria's attention southward, and strike out with Armenia against Antioch and Syria?

We can even simulate the apparent individuality of the Syrian cities, perhaps having them rebel if not governered by a highly loyal Amir of Nur Al-Din.

Well put that way, what the hell

[Ahiga]

Bumping, as following the Ghaznavids & Ghorids they will be next.

I should have bumped it later when I realized it's those two who come next, not Zengids.

[Miraj]

I'm declaring this an officially new faction that will be in the game. Ahiga can fill in the details

[Sinan]

Very, very glad to hear this.

[Randarkmaan]

As am I!
And one minor thing you should know and perhaps use: You remember the kettle hats the Mamluks wore in MTW2? It seems that these were quite common in 13th century Syria, so some of their native foot soldiers and cavalry should perhaps be wearing this helmet.

[Beauchamp]

Here is some concrete information reguarding Zengi/Nur-al-Din:

Cities: Mosul and Halab, he was Atabeg of these two 1127-1128.
Halab was his capitol and he used it as a base to fight the crusaders in Edessa (Forgot Arabic name for Edessa )

The dynasty itself was of Seljuq origin, and im assuming mostly Turkish as opposed to Persian or other nationalities.

Here are some of the rulers of his legacy after he died:

Zengid Atabegs of Mosul
Imad ad-Din Zengi I 1127-1146
Saif ad-Din Ghazi I 1146-1149
Qutb ad-Din Mawdud 1149-1170
Saif ad-Din Ghazi II 1170-1180
Izz ad-Din Mas'ud I 1180-1193
Nur ad-Din Arslan Shah I 1193-1211
Izz ad-Din Mas'ud II 1211-1218
Nur ad-Din Arslan Shah II 1218-1219
Nasir ad-Din Mahmud 1219-1234

Zengid Atabegs of Aleppo
Imad ad-Din Zengi I 1128-1146
Nur ad-Din Mahmud 1146-1174
As-Salih Ismail al-Malik 1174-1181
Imad ad-Din Zengi II 1181-1183

Zengid Atabegs of Damascus
Nur ad-Din Mahmud 1154-1174
As-Salih Ismail al-Malik 1174

Zengid Atabegs of Sinjar (in Northern Iraq)
Imad ad-Din Zengi II 1171-1197
Qutb ad-Din Muhammad 1197-1219
Imad ad-Din Shahanshah 1219-1220
Jalal ad-Din Mahmud 1219-1220
Fath ad-Din Umar 1219-1220

Zengid Atabegs of Jazira (in Northern Iraq)
Mu'izz ad-Din Sanjar Shah 1180-1208
Mu'izz ad-Din Mahmud 1208-1241
Mahmud Al-Malik Al-Zahir 1241-1250

(Taken from Wikipedia, I know I "cheated" but I couldnt find any other source of good info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zengid_dynasty)