The Misplaced identity of America

[Tajir]

This is just an opinion section, so nothing is certain or factual and shouldn't warrant heated debate, depending on who you are, but this is something I've observed:

The American people compare themselves, on a daily basis to the pre-Roman/Alexander/Byzantine Greeks. But I see America as Rome. Now the Republic and tomorrow the Empire.

Americans see themselves as a small band of defensive, free-spirited, community-based, and democratic people. In reality, Americans are an offensive tribe, typicall conservative and strict in culture, very individualist, and Republican people. I don't mean democrat/republican as in political backgrounds, I mean the fact that the US is a Republic, not a Democracy.

The American capitalist mindset as that of a Roman, not a Greek. The American person thinks of himself as an imaginitive and fantastical Greek, but in reality he is a hardcore logistic thinker and a realist to the core.

Its just an observation. Many parts of American life, including the shared political system with the Roman Republic, make America a carbon copy of Rome, not Greece.

And to end my exquisite rantings, I'd like to cap off by saying that America, much like Rome, is going from a federal Republic, to an authoritarian Empire.

[Chaigidel]

well we will see how it pans out but the USA turning to an empire could have been done in 1945 and in 1950 but we decided not to go on a nuking spree and just own the world before anyone could stop us... so that being said.

I dont think the roman empire had a constitution to which its military swore an oath to uphold.. basically if the usa ever became an empire the military could set it back to a republic depending on the generals in power at the time.

Most people in the US dont think about greeks or romans they have a distinct lack of understanding of history and what has gone down before( but all people are fickle and forgetful right :O

currently our main problem and the main problem of every government is the ascendancy of the mega-multinational- corporation who exist in many countries and only obey the law of money..

to the extent that we are controlled by the corporate motives bad decisions will continue to be made but i dont think that a traditional authoritarian empire is what awaits-- probably something more sinister.

[Last Roman]

I've never heard the comparison between Americans and Greeks. It's always been Rome and America. Even the founders modeled themselves as Romans (the sculpture of George Washington in a Roman toga instead of a Greek tunic). Even many of the buildings in DC are built in a Roman design. And why do you think they choose a republic over a direct democracy? I don't know where you got this idea, because I haven't seen any evidence of it.

[Elohim]

Oh you know the sort of thing - Herodotus' Greeks; free-born Westerners fighting against the slavish, enslaved armies of the East (Communism usually, focus has recently changed).

Speaking of the focus on war against the Communists, America has over 800 military bases in over 130 countries, most situated to fight against Mother Russia & her Warsaw Pact.

Bit of a defunct threat, neh?

And that, ladies & gentlemen is why the British complain that the Americans are overpaid, oversexed and over here. Of course, the over-paid bit is a good thing now, since the dollar is c. 2.01 to the pound.

[Gelgoog]

the only direct comparison to rome that i can think of is how washington wanted to be known as the American "Cincinnatus"

[Scipio Afracanis]

I think the Rome-America comparrison is right to an extent.

Empire and Empire.

What we called it was Manifest Destiny.Kind of catchy.Took Hawaii,Cuba,Phillpines ect....being a Imperial power.


Romans wanted to bring the light that is Rome to all other area's of the world.Enlighten and enslave?
I'm sure they have a better phrase. O yah, "Veni Vidi Vici".

They were #1 for along time and we are # 1.(for now)

But you can also trace there down fall and look at where we are now and see some of the same trends.

When they started messing with there popualtion,didn't it have to do with Roman couples stopped having as much kids?I thought it was something like that.

Slaves doing work Romans originally did,possibly because of war requirments needing many men to defend there vast Empire.

Depending on people who aren't citizens to do needed work in there own country.Sounds abit similar.Not exactly though.

Then Rome started giving there much prized and hard-to-get(at least before) Citizenship to people on there borders which were short term solutions but turned into big probelms.



We did have a very bad Civil war(only 1 compared to the many Roman civil wars) to and one of the winning Generals did become president which happend in Rome as well.(General to Emperor and I don't think there was any voting)

Just some thoughts.

[Kretchfoop]

I think the Rome-America comparrison is right to an extent.

Empire and Empire.

What we called it was Manifest Destiny.Kind of catchy.Took Hawaii,Cuba,Phillpines ect....being a Imperial power.


Romans wanted to bring the light that is Rome to all other area's of the world.Enlighten and enslave?
I'm sure they have a better phrase. O yah, "Veni Vidi Vici".

They were #1 for along time and we are # 1.(for now)

But you can also trace there down fall and look at where we are now and see some of the same trends.

When they started messing with there popualtion,didn't it have to do with Roman couples stopped having as much kids?I thought it was something like that.

Slaves doing work Romans originally did,possibly because of war requirments needing many men to defend there vast Empire.

Depending on people who aren't citizens to do needed work in there own country.Sounds abit similar.Not exactly though.

Then Rome started giving there much prized and hard-to-get(at least before) Citizenship to people on there borders which were short term solutions but turned into big probelms.



We did have a very bad Civil war(only 1 compared to the many Roman civil wars) to and one of the winning Generals did become president which happend in Rome as well.(General to Emperor and I don't think there was any voting)

Just some thoughts.

Most if not all of those points apply in some way to virtually every single empire that has ever existed.

As for the original post, I know you said it's not factual but the argument you base your entire post on is false. I don't know anyone in the US that compares themselves to classical Greece on a daily basis. And when people do make comparisons to Classical Greece it's usually included in a framework encompassing all of Western Civilization. When Americans think about their founding principles they look more towards the Enlightenment and Republican Rome. If you were just looking for some sort of pretense to go off about the US going down like Rome you should have just said so.

[Francisco Montana]

But I see America as Rome. Now the Republic and tomorrow the Empire.

Rome never invested large amounts of money rebuilding nations only to give them right back to the natives after conquest. We did with Germany (at least the part we were responsible for) and Japan, and we are doing so again with Afganistan and Iraq.

I really don't see any comparison between Rome and The United States beyond that fact that we have both been world Hyper Powers.

[Tajir]

Rome never invested large amounts of money rebuilding nations only to give them right back to the natives after conquest. We did with Germany (at least the part we were responsible for) and Japan, and we are doing so again with Afganistan and Iraq.

I really don't see any comparison between Rome and The United States beyond that fact that we have both been world Hyper Powers.

Yes, and how strict is the control on the armies the Japanese and Germans are allowed to have? And how many US troops are stationed in each country? Yeah, that's definitely giving the land back to the natives if I ever saw such a move...< / sarcasm>

NEXT THING:

Okay, so just about everyone is saying America is definitely like Rome, but here's the thing, some people see Rome as a negative, so automatically those people identify themselves with the Greeks. Think about it, Greece is the home of Democracy, which man Americans erroneously believe their nation is (truth is America is a republic). But in reality, the main comparison I can come up with is the usual American who identifies with the term Democracy and not Republic, but there is much more to it.

[Francisco Montana]

Yes, and how strict is the control on the armies the Japanese and Germans are allowed to have? And how many US troops are stationed in each country? Yeah, that's definitely giving the land back to the natives if I ever saw such a move...< / sarcasm>

Those controls are enforced by the Japanese and the Germans themselves. There is nothing the United States, the United Nations or even NATO does to enforce them or set the limits. As for the bases we maintain in Japan and Germany they are there at the request of the respective nations to stave off the old Soviet Empire and the spread of communism in southeast Asia ala North Korea, et al (in the case of Japan.)

If we were Romanesque we would have taken the capitals and installed US governors who directly report to Washington D.C. What we did does't remotely resemble that even if you use the most imaginative interpretations of the historic record.

I'm sorry. I still don't see any comparison between Rome and the United States.

None.

[Count of Montesano]

Dahir;1707425]Yes, and how strict is the control on the armies the Japanese and Germans are allowed to have? And how many US troops are stationed in each country? Yeah, that's definitely giving the land back to the natives if I ever saw such a move...< / sarcasm>

NEXT THING:

Okay, so just about everyone is saying America is definitely like Rome, but here's the thing, some people see Rome as a negative, so automatically those people identify themselves with the Greeks.

Two rebuttals:

1. Having served at US Army headquarters Japan, I can assure you the US military has no authority over Japan in any way, shape, or form. If you're an American serviceman accused of a crime involving a Japanese citizen, you will be tried in Japanese courts and sentenced in Japanese prison. Also, with the war in Iraq there aren't enough troops in either Japan or Germany to enact martial law even if America wanted to do something that stupid.

Given the current political climate and costs for supporting WW II era bases, I wouldn't be surprised if the US pulled out from both countries in the next 10-20 years.


2. I know of very few Americans who model themselves after Romans and almost nobody think of themselves as Greeks beyond college.

In no particular order:

Adult conservatives like to model themselves after the British if they're rich East Coasters or after Wild West Cowboys if they're from the South Midwest.

Adult liberals run the gamut of who they want to model themselves after, from the French to the Swedes if they're Euro-worshipping yuppies, or Indian gurus to Native American shamans if they're new age vegans. At least here in Seattle, liberals don't even call conservative rivals "Romans" but rather skip right to the Nazi label.

The average teen (who btw is far dumber than most of the fine young posters we have on TWC) model themselves after 50 Cent or Paris Hilton or "
insert lame EMO band of the week name here."

[Thanatos]

You speak of foreign policies, m'lord, but what of the big picture? There's quite a few similarities there, methinks.

[Francisco Montana]

You speak of foreign policies, m'lord, but what of the big picture? There's quite a few similarities there, methinks.

What big picture? What similarities? Be specific.

I just don't see any comparison to Rome and United States.

I think the Rome-America comparrison is right to an extent.

Empire and Empire.

The United States is not an empire! Empires conquer. We don't. We give the land back after we've beaten back the enemy.

[Thanatos]

What big picture? What similarities? Be specific.

I just don't see any comparison to Rome and United States.

Rome and United States:

Both decided to screw over domestic producers in favor for cheap labor, and cheaper imports abroad.
Both stretched their forces too thin.
Both allowed their militaries to become lax.
Both degraded the worth of their money. Rome mixed it with lesser materials. The United States was worse. The USD has no backing whatsoever now.
Both decided to not worry about immigration issues.
Both decided to not worry about the funding for the military.

I don't know about you, but I'm quite scared.

[Francisco Montana]

Rome and United States:

Both decided to screw over domestic producers in favor for cheap labor, and cheaper imports abroad.

All nations do this when it suites them. We have hurt some domestic industries with this practice, true. But Rome's economy was never feuled by a true free market. The U.S. economy is impressively strong right now and will continue to be into the foreseeable future (yes, we will have minor corrections but I don't think any economist is predicting a full scale depression any time soon.)

Both stretched their forces too thin.

This is debatable. We are nowhere near as stretched as the Roman Empire was. Not even the same ballpark.

Both allowed their militaries to become lax.

Our military is lax? Tell that to the men and women of the United States Armed Forces. They are anything but lax, my good man.

Both degraded the worth of their money. Rome mixed it with lesser materials. The United States was worse. The USD has no backing whatsoever now.

The USDollar is fine. No country backs their money with actual raw material (ie gold) anymore. That was a brief practice that dissappeared somewhere in the mid 1880s (I believe). Is the British Pound worth a pound of sterling? No. The value of all of our monies is set by the market. As for any 'fear' of a weaker dollar: A weaker dollar means a stronger Euro and a stronger Euro means more Europeans coming to the US for holiday (more buying power) and spending more money here (ie more money pumped into our already strong economy.) Weaker/stronger dollar/euro is a double edged sword. It's always going to fluxuate.

Both decided to not worry about immigration issues.

The United States (very unlike Rome) was founded on immigration. Don't get me wrong, I'm for actually enforcing our immigration laws (vs the Left who just wants an open-border/amnisty policy) but immigration in and of itself doesn't worry me. We need to control it for the simple reason that no country can sustain too many new citizens too fast.

Both decided to not worry about the funding for the military.

This is still a two party system. Just because one party has historically abandoned the military doesn't mean the other one has or will. Again, the military is fine.

I don't know about you, but I'm quite scared.

Don't be. There's no reason to be scared.

[Thanatos]

The U.S. economy is impressively strong right now and will continue to be into the foreseeable future (yes, we will have minor corrections but I don't think any economist is predicting a full scale depression any time soon.)

How can it be strong if all the multinational corporations lay off American workers in decision for cheap labor overseas time and time again?

You end up with a nation of consumers!

[Last Roman]

Both decided to not worry about immigration issues.
Both decided to not worry about the funding for the military.

methinks you need to brush up on your Roman history.

[Sheep]

The United States is not an empire! Empires conquer. We don't. We give the land back after we've beaten back the enemy.

When are we going to give the land back to the natives then?

[Francisco Montana]

When are we going to give the land back to the natives then?

You mean the land that they themselves were killing eachother over? You mean the land they took from the people here before them?

You're talking to someone with the upmost respect for America's First People. But if you want to really go there, when are the French going to give their land back? (The Franks invaded). When are the English going to give their land back? (The Normans invaded). When are the Russians going to give their land back? (The People of Novgrad invaded). That's a weak arguement at best.

[Thanatos]

What do you mean? Did not the Romans eventually have not enough men to defend their border? And what about 212 A.D., when they extended automatic citizenship to all freeborn subjects?