Response to tBP in Helios the 8th

[Silver Guard]

There are many issues I’ve yet to cover here, that I could write about, gay marriage, the recent equality legislation in the UK, adoption, gays in the military etc etc. But more than anything, an article in march’s edition of the Gay Times caught my eye. The article was by Peter Tatchell, President of the lobby group Outrage! and it talks about a future, a future in which sexuality is irrelevant, or is attributed no more meaning than being right or left handed. A future in which gay identity, and pride in it won’t exist, because gay people will no longer need the support and pride of gay culture to wrap themselves in to protect themselves against homophobia. A future in which the gay community has achieved all of its equality goals, and there’s no need for people to “come out” and say they are gay, it just won’t matter anymore.

I would argue that that dream will never occur. There will never be a time where I look at gays kissing and don’t think to myself “yuck, please, get a room!” There will never be a time where a straight couple will not veer away from a gay one, preferring their other straight friends. This is subjective prejudice. We don’t HATE gays, we do not misunderstand them, and instead we simply PREFER the company of other who share our interests. It’s the same with anything, metal heads will hang out with metal heads, oldies with oldies ect ect. Straights will hang out with straights.

It’s a nice dream. It’s a world I very much long to live in, though I wonder, having grown up among a Queer generation how well I might fit in there. But whats astounding is not Tatchell’s vision, because its one shared by many, myself included. Whats astounding is that Tatchell claims the beginnings of this future are already upon us. That in Clubs up and down this country gay and straight youth intermingle with the gender of someones partner getting not even a second glance. I find it hard to believe, but then my own clubbing experiences are limited mostly to gay bars. The one straight place I ever go in with any regularity is my students union, and that’s hardly representative of the straight world in general. But despite this, I can also see it so clearly. I can see people of my generation and below me not caring about sexuality. And why should they? They know full well that a gay person is no different to any other person. They know about sexual orientation, and in the more secular western Europe, despite the best efforts of the Church and Family groups, they know that a non-straight or Queer sexuality is not a bad thing.

I care about someone’s sexuality. A guy may be quite pleasant, but the thought that he’s looking at my ass when I turn away is enough to put me off him completely. Any attractive straight male is inherently going to be put off by a gay man, simply being repulsed by the fact he may be enjoying his company for his looks, his physique, whatever.

Before we come to acceptance, before we realize this dream that so many of us long to be a part of, we first must have equality. Only once there is no material or substantial difference between being gay and straight, when to all obvious purposes the two mean the same thing, and just denote a person, only then will sexuality have no meaning.

How could they possibly, ever be the same?? One is buggary, one is heterosexual relations. All laws differing the two may vanish, anti sexuality discrimination laws may be passed, but at no time will the two be the same. A metal head will never be the same as a Goth, no matter how much the music genres become similar in future, the two are utterly distinct parts of society.

Its for this reason that we carry on doing what we are doing, that we keep on getting in your faces and make sure that the “heterosexist straight supremacist majority” never forget that we are here, we are people too, and we deserve the same rights that you have once. Give us what we ask for, and the culture you fear and hate so much will slowly fade away. Unless of course, what you fear is a world without homophobia. A world without bigotry and prejudice on the grounds of sexuality.

Eh? I’m sorry what was that? We have to always consider your existence, have to have constant reminders of just how Gay you are just so… we notice? Gay Pride Marches will never be an ok thing; they’re in-your-face, irritating, and generally insulting. We know you’re there; we just don’t care if you are. So stop getting in our faces and maybe we’d let you be. I’ve walked through a gay pride march, and I have had difficulty ever since not attaching stereotypes to gays ever since. I don’t want to, but with your pride… of nothing really important… you make it very difficult. If I was to go on a “SA pride march” through TWC, hell everyone would know I existed, and I’d be able to register my pride of being SA, but if anything I’d be more disliked then ever before for being a nuisance. That’s all gay pride marches manage, to increase homophobia and dislike of gays, in exactly the same way.

There’s another factor of course, we don’t do it just to annoy you or remind you. We do it for ourselves. To remember all that has been done to us, and to send a message of hope to all those who still hide away, that we are here for them, we will support them, and even if they never publicly acknowledge us, we will still fight for their rights as much as our own.

Soon I will set up the Gray pride march. I will remind all of the Gray clan identity, and bring forth all Gray’s in Scotland and elsewhere to join me in preaching our identity as an important and integral part of Scottish society. All who oppose us are racists and supporters of Scot clan warfare and so should have legal cases filed against them for inciting hatred.

For this I am glad. While we may have won so much, I missed a lot too. I never had to come of age in a time when all my school mates were having sex, but legally I could not. I will never have to enter a relationship knowing I will never have the same rights as my parents do. I came of a tolerant school, and never saw the impact of section 28 practices. But I also never had any help and support at school. Not mistreated, just ignored. Its hard to know, on the inside, that you are different, but not know what it means, what affect it will have, why you are this way. Its harder still when there is nowhere you can look for help or guidance or information. People often say I am lying outright when I say studies have shown that 1 in 4 gay teens will commit suicide. But the facts bear it out. We all know how hard being a teenager is. Now try adding something as difficult as being gay to that list, in a society, in an environment that does not tolerate that kind of thing. I came close to being a part of that statistic. If it were not for the help and support and love of 2 people, one of them himself now dead, I would not be here today writing this editorial.

In the old days, when the Gray’s were discriminated against by the Scots, as a lesser part of the Stuarts, they were not represented enough in Scot society.
Yes I am being extreme, in my own school people make fun of me for being of French origin, others for being Pakistani, others for being ginger, gay, geeky, unsporting. You note, being gay is only one of many things facing teenagers. Don’t make yourself more of a victim then you are.

Why do I say this? Because your actions toward us hurt us, hurt us more than we can say. Our youth, and many of our adults live in a world of fear, of intolerance, of prejudice, for being something they have no choice over.

I’ve faced my share of bad treatment, at one point an impressively strong member of my school threw me over a table, I spun over a chair and was stopped by the next one, smashing into the next table. We all suffer, some more then others, and there are worse treated people then gays.

Gays once hung for buggery, no more, now such issues as adoption and marriage are in the courts, homosexuality have come a long way. But how often to you see women in Gay pride marches? How many lesbian pride marches are there? I’ve never noticed many myself, maybe it just shows how much more sensible the fairer sex is.

[Fatigue]

Man where to start.

tBP - If I've misinterpreted anything feel free to correct me. I think no one has more experience, or a right to, argue with this.

I would argue that that dream will never occur. There will never be a time where I look at gays kissing and don’t think to myself “yuck, please, get a room!” There will never be a time where a straight couple will not veer away from a gay one, preferring their other straight friends. This is subjective prejudice. We don’t HATE gays, we do not misunderstand them, and instead we simply PREFER the company of other who share our interests. It’s the same with anything, metal heads will hang out with metal heads, oldies with oldies ect ect. Straights will hang out with straights.

People will hang out with who they choose, certainly, but to say that all straight couples will automatically veer away from gays like they're repulsive is just plain wrong.

As for the dream: I think it could be possible, though far in the future, perhaps after a couple more generations. Barring the return of a fundamentalist majority to the public sphere, with education starting in the home and continuing through to high school, I think so yes. I have no doubt there will be groups who feel otherwise, but I hope for a tolerant majority.

Any attractive straight male is inherently going to be put off by a gay man, simply being repulsed by the fact he may be enjoying his company for his looks, his physique, whatever.

That's a blanket statement if I ever saw one. I suppose a girl should be repulsed by the fact that you may like to look at her, as well as talk.

How could they possibly, ever be the same?? One is buggary, one is heterosexual relations. All laws differing the two may vanish, anti sexuality discrimination laws may be passed, but at no time will the two be the same. A metal head will never be the same as a Goth, no matter how much the music genres become similar in future, the two are utterly distinct parts of society.

I think he means that the focus on differences will vanish. It will just become two people in a relationship; it will not be defined by their genders or sexuality. Your desire to see them as two different things speaks volumes.

Eh? I’m sorry what was that? We have to always consider your existence, have to have constant reminders of just how Gay you are just so… we notice? Gay Pride Marches will never be an ok thing; they’re in-your-face, irritating, and generally insulting. We know you’re there; we just don’t care if you are. So stop getting in our faces and maybe we’d let you be. I’ve walked through a gay pride march, and I have had difficulty ever since not attaching stereotypes to gays ever since. I don’t want to, but with your pride… of nothing really important… you make it very difficult. If I was to go on a “SA pride march” through TWC, hell everyone would know I existed, and I’d be able to register my pride of being SA, but if anything I’d be more disliked then ever before for being a nuisance. That’s all gay pride marches manage, to increase homophobia and dislike of gays, in exactly the same way.

His point is that being gay is still something not widely considered to be a good, or common thing. Gay pride marches are supportive of gays and the people who recognise them - to publicly let them know that it's ok to be who they are, to want equality, and not to be afraid of it. They are not just there to irritate the heterosexual community. I suppose the reason Martin Luther King marched and held rallies was to just annoy the white people.

Soon I will set up the Gray pride march. I will remind all of the Gray clan identity, and bring forth all Gray’s in Scotland and elsewhere to join me in preaching our identity as an important and integral part of Scottish society. All who oppose us are racists and supporters of Scot clan warfare and so should have legal cases filed against them for inciting hatred.

Sigh. See above.

You note, being gay is only one of many things facing teenagers. Don’t make yourself more of a victim then you are.

To those who are gay, however, it's just about the biggest thing to ever happen to them. And to discover it is to go through a period of extreme panic, worry, denial, and most importantly - fear. Some are lucky, but a lot aren't, and their situation is as big as any racial issue, and is certainly one of the biggest social issues next to womens rights etc.

We all suffer, some more then others, and there are worse treated people then gays.

If you're gay in a fundamentalist society your treatment will be as bad as, perhaps worse, than those who are of different religions or ethnicities in the same country. And in more modern countries they still have to deal with parents kicking them out, beating them, being socially ostracized and mistreated by their fellow citizens. If there are worse treated people out there, they're not far behind.

But how often to you see women in Gay pride marches? How many lesbian pride marches are there? I’ve never noticed many myself, maybe it just shows how much more sensible the fairer sex is.

You're joking right?

And no, I'm not gay myself. I just happen to know a lot of good people, some close friends, who've suffered too much unnecessarily. Things are better for them now, but it could be a lot better. The same could be said for many issues. They have the right to do what they're doing, justly. Enough said.

[Silver Guard]

People will hang out with who they choose, certainly, but to say that all straight couples will automatically veer away from gays like they're repulsive is just plain wrong.

Howevver, if I was to walk into a bar with a girl friend, I would vere away from gay couples to sit with straight ones. Reason being is that I would feel uncomfortable, in the same way as I would next to an extreme goth couple. Its an entirely different and conflicting lifestyle. They can have fun in whatever way they like, just not with me. There is a difference, will always be a difference. The differences in interest are just too extreme to occur in one group of people (say a group of friends). One of my best friends at school is gay, but I would never think of having a night out with him, I'd hang out with girls, or atleast stright guys, people who share my interests.

As for the dream: I think it could be possible, though far in the future, perhaps after a couple more generations. Barring the return of a fundamentalist majority to the public sphere, with education starting in the home and continuing through to high school, I think so yes. I have no doubt there will be groups who feel otherwise, but I hope for a tolerant majority.

See above

That's a blanket statement if I ever saw one. I suppose a girl should be repulsed by the fact that you may like to look at her, as well as talk.

Well you see, many are. Often the best looking of girls (especialy lesbians) will surround themselves with other girls to prevent such an event as above. I would add lesbian to every part of the above, and it would make sense.

I think he means that the focus on differences will vanish. It will just become two people in a relationship; it will not be defined by their genders or sexuality. Your desire to see them as two different things speaks volumes.

In the same way as men and women are different, straight men and gay men are different, and always will be. In the same way there are innate differences between men and women physicaly and mentaly, the differences between straight and gay lifestyle (to varying amounts) are very different.

His point is that being gay is still something not widely considered to be a good, or common thing. Gay pride marches are supportive of gays and the people who recognise them - to publicly let them know that it's ok to be who they are, to want equality, and not to be afraid of it. They are not just there to irritate the heterosexual community. I suppose the reason Martin Luther King marched and held rallies was to just annoy the white people.

Are gays allowed to vote? Do they have to sit at the back of buses? Of course not. Gay marriage and adoption is no longer even to do with gay pride marches, they do not apply anymore. Gay pride marches are becoming bigger and bigger as they increace in unneccessecity (sp). Do you realy think gay pride will end the moment marriage and adoption are gained? Of course not.

To those who are gay, however, it's just about the biggest thing to ever happen to them. And to discover it is to go through a period of extreme panic, worry, denial, and most importantly - fear. Some are lucky, but a lot aren't, and their situation is as big as any racial issue, and is certainly one of the biggest social issues next to womens rights etc.

For a while I was terrified of school, I was badly treated every day for being a push-over and having french heritage (this is Jersey, how close to france can you get?). This ended when I smashed a collegue over the head with a lunchbox. People left me alone as long as I stood up for myself. The same was true of my gay friend. He was never bothered due to his size, no one makes fun of him, nothing. People will find children to bully even if gays suddenly ceased to exist. Gays are not unique.

If you're gay in a fundamentalist society your treatment will be as bad as, perhaps worse, than those who are of different religions or ethnicities in the same country. And in more modern countries they still have to deal with parents kicking them out, beating them, being socially ostracized and mistreated by their fellow citizens. If there are worse treated people out there, they're not far behind.

We're not in a fundementalist society
There are laws against abusive parents
Equality is not an issue in terms of these laws

You're joking right?

Only to some extent

I get the feeling you are saying to Gays "hey we do not hang you anymore and we are starting to kinda treat you as humans so be grateful". Which is utterly ridiculous. Those are basic human rights that every desires and deserves.

If you where part of a group that until very recently (actually still is) was beaten, imprisoned, murdered and subjugated you might want to take every opportunity to demand equality.

I also find it hilarious that every homophobe is afraid that gays might check them or do stuff to them. I mean seriously do you really think you are that attractive, methinks you might be overestimating your attractiveness.

On a side note why is it that every time some who is straight defends Gays they feel the need to mention that they are straight are people really that afraid.

I find it hilarious you consider a bisexual a homophobe, enough said.


tBP: My case is against in-your-face gays and gay pride, not against gays themselves. My case is also against the possibility that gaay and straight couples will ever be considered one and the same. If you say that in-your-face gays and gay pride of that genre is decreacing, then obviously a lot of gays agree with me.

[Sosobra]

I find it hilarious you consider a bisexual a homophobe, enough said.

Did I say YOU where a homophobe no , I simply alluded to it based on the content of your post and as a comment on homphobes in general.

Bis and Gays can be just as homophobic as straight people hell look at Pastor Ted.

[Amorphos]

jus jumpin in

i am straight but i have been on a gay pride march in london with girlfreind and kid - i think it is all in how we perceive things and how long we are exposed to it. most people have negative reactions if reasonable unexposed i.e.they don’t have gay friends or co-workers etc. the same goes for anything different... punk was once thought of as abhorrent but now you can walk down the high street looking like almost anything without people giving a care.

[the Black Prince]

Howevver, if I was to walk into a bar with a girl friend, I would vere away from gay couples to sit with straight ones. Reason being is that I would feel uncomfortable, in the same way as I would next to an extreme goth couple. Its an entirely different and conflicting lifestyle. They can have fun in whatever way they like, just not with me. There is a difference, will always be a difference. The differences in interest are just too extreme to occur in one group of people (say a group of friends). One of my best friends at school is gay, but I would never think of having a night out with him, I'd hang out with girls, or atleast stright guys, people who share my interests.

a gay man can share your interests, like the same sports, music, clothes, cars etc etc. my straight friends go on nights out with me precisely for that reason. we share the same interests. we like the same restaurants, films, nightclubs, music etc etc.

i'd also disagree with there being such a thing as a gay lifestyle
gay culture, yes, but lifestyle???
my lifestyle is no different to many straight men i know. we have different tastes in partners, sure... but then who doesn't? 1 likes blondes with big tits, another prefers slim brunettes, i prefer men... doesn't in the slightest effect our ability to hang out together, go on nights out together etc

precisely what is this gay lifestyle you refer?

Are gays allowed to vote? Do they have to sit at the back of buses? Of course not. Gay marriage and adoption is no longer even to do with gay pride marches, they do not apply anymore. Gay pride marches are becoming bigger and bigger as they increace in unneccessecity (sp). Do you realy think gay pride will end the moment marriage and adoption are gained? Of course not.

of course it won't
as i say in the article, its gradual. it'll happen over a generation or so. it requires the presence, in the adult prime, of a generation of people who have been brought up in a world where being gay or straight makes no difference. thats not yours or my generation, i don't think. its our childrens.

I find it hilarious you consider a bisexual a homophobe, enough said.

people consider both Biphobia Transphobia and Heterophobia ridiculous too, but all 3 exist, they're just not as well known as homophobia.

[Fatigue]

Howevver, if I was to walk into a bar with a girl friend, I would vere away from gay couples to sit with straight ones. Reason being is that I would feel uncomfortable, in the same way as I would next to an extreme goth couple. Its an entirely different and conflicting lifestyle. They can have fun in whatever way they like, just not with me. There is a difference, will always be a difference. The differences in interest are just too extreme to occur in one group of people (say a group of friends). One of my best friends at school is gay, but I would never think of having a night out with him, I'd hang out with girls, or atleast stright guys, people who share my interests.

That's you, not every straight couple as you previously argued.

Well you see, many are. Often the best looking of girls (especialy lesbians) will surround themselves with other girls to prevent such an event as above. I would add lesbian to every part of the above, and it would make sense.

A true phenomenon, yes, but that doesn't always mean it will be the case. There are a lot of other places to talk - just because a girl doesn't want to be constantly hit on at a bar or some such, doesn't mean she isn't more friendly in other situations.

In the same way as men and women are different, straight men and gay men are different, and always will be. In the same way there are innate differences between men and women physicaly and mentaly, the differences between straight and gay lifestyle (to varying amounts) are very different.

And that automatically means the two can never be seen on the same level? In terms of relationships, I hope that eventually the two will be seen equally in the future - a gay relationship is no less valid than a straight one.

Are gays allowed to vote? Do they have to sit at the back of buses? Of course not. Gay marriage and adoption is no longer even to do with gay pride marches, they do not apply anymore. Gay pride marches are becoming bigger and bigger as they increace in unneccessecity (sp). Do you realy think gay pride will end the moment marriage and adoption are gained? Of course not.

Whatever your opinions, they're still gonna do it, because they can. Not everyone believes its wholly unnecessary - and if you don't like it, don't go to them or watch it. Simple enough.

For a while I was terrified of school, I was badly treated every day for being a push-over and having french heritage (this is Jersey, how close to france can you get?). This ended when I smashed a collegue over the head with a lunchbox. People left me alone as long as I stood up for myself. The same was true of my gay friend. He was never bothered due to his size, no one makes fun of him, nothing. People will find children to bully even if gays suddenly ceased to exist. Gays are not unique.

I'm not saying they are. What I am saying is that, like everyone, they don't deserve to be picked on because of their sexuality. The fact that they're making a vocal complaint about it seems to just irritate you. They have a right to do it.

We're not in a fundementalist society
There are laws against abusive parents
Equality is not an issue in terms of these laws

I didn't say we were. You said there were people treated worse out there so I went for a common example. And laws don't stop it from happening, but what can you do? It still shouldn't happen, like a lot of things.

[Ummon]

Recently, in Scotland, it has been proposed that doctors do not ask their little patients "where's your mother?" or "where's your father?", but "where's your tutor?".

You see, gay marriage/adoption is a not-so-clever thing. It will take some time to discover it, but in any case, we will. :wink:

I see it much like some kind of "I bought a kid for you my dear" thing.

[Sosobra]

Gays once hung for buggery, no more, now such issues as adoption and marriage are in the courts, homosexuality have come a long way. But how often to you see women in Gay pride marches? How many lesbian pride marches are there? I’ve never noticed many myself, maybe it just shows how much more sensible the fairer sex is.

I get the feeling you are saying to Gays "hey we do not hang you anymore and we are starting to kinda treat you as humans so be grateful". Which is utterly ridiculous. Those are basic human rights that every desires and deserves.

If you where part of a group that until very recently (actually still is) was beaten, imprisoned, murdered and subjugated you might want to take every opportunity to demand equality.

I also find it hilarious that every homophobe is afraid that gays might check them or do stuff to them. I mean seriously do you really think you are that attractive, methinks you might be overestimating your attractiveness.

On a side note why is it that every time some who is straight defends Gays they feel the need to mention that they are straight are people really that afraid.

[Ummon]

One thing comes to mind: adoption is not a way to obtain equality.

[Sosobra]

One thing comes to mind: adoption is not a way to obtain equality.

The ability to be allowed to adopt is.

[the Black Prince]

wow

well at least people READ what i write. i thought i was writing for merely ozy and ian's benefit lol

now, to begin.

I would argue that that dream will never occur. There will never be a time where I look at gays kissing and don’t think to myself “yuck, please, get a room!” There will never be a time where a straight couple will not veer away from a gay one, preferring their other straight friends. This is subjective prejudice. We don’t HATE gays, we do not misunderstand them, and instead we simply PREFER the company of other who share our interests. It’s the same with anything, metal heads will hang out with metal heads, oldies with oldies ect ect. Straights will hang out with straights.

its definately not true to suggest straights hang out with straights.

i belong to an LGBT society, been a member for 3 years, been running it for 2. one of the problems the society faces is low membership and even poorer turn out at events. there are any number of reasons for it, but a principle one is that many gay people on the campus don't feel any need to belong to the society or associate with other gay people. they have their own group of friends - straight people - who they have more in common with.

being gay isn't like liking rock music, or fast cars, or whatever. you don't hang around and talk about being gay. one of the oddest things about the society is it brings together a bunch of people who would never associate with each other, because the only thing they have in common with each other is being gay. It makes it hard though, because you have no common ground to sit around and talk with these people. At oour socials we play music, but easily half the group like rock music of various types, a handful like modern pop and chart music, others like rap and hip hop, and 1 prefers classical.... and so on.

gay people invariably DO hang around with straight people, and you'll see plenty of gay people in bars with their friends, who are straight, and plenty of straight people in gays bars as well.

i live with 3 other people. all my friends, all straight. we hang out together, going drinking together. i've been to straight bars with them. one of them, Pete, the most "homophobic" (for want of a better word) has been to the local gay bar with me. Pete will openly say he dislikes the kind of sex i engage in. i don't expect him too, afterall, he is straight, but that doesn't stop us being good friends, or hanging out together.

its a slow change. our society is at a point where legall,y prejudice against gay people isn't tolerated. its not quite made it to the social level, and will never fully permeate all of society, but there will come a time when being a homophobe has the same connotations being a racist does.

I care about someone’s sexuality. A guy may be quite pleasant, but the thought that he’s looking at my ass when I turn away is enough to put me off him completely. Any attractive straight male is inherently going to be put off by a gay man, simply being repulsed by the fact he may be enjoying his company for his looks, his physique, whatever.

thats a very male reaction... i truely pity the women in your company if you act the same way toward all women as you expect gay men act toward you.

How could they possibly, ever be the same?? One is buggary, one is heterosexual relations. All laws differing the two may vanish, anti sexuality discrimination laws may be passed, but at no time will the two be the same. A metal head will never be the same as a Goth, no matter how much the music genres become similar in future, the two are utterly distinct parts of society.

interesting, that you compare buggery to heterosexual RELATIONS.

afterall, the proper comparison is to compare it to vaginal intercourse. and even then, its not quite true, since you can bugger a woman as well.

relations is the key word. love of a man for a man is still love. we may have sex in a way you dislike, different from the manner in which you engage in it, but love and sex are not conjoined.

homosexuality is an ATTRACTION toward members of the same sex, it has NOTHING to do with anal intercourse.
i'd be interested in how you think lesbians engage in buggery btw...?

a metal head isn't the same as a goth?
so we should treat a goth worse, afford him less rights and protections, less freedoms, subject him to criminal sanctions, just because us, as a metal head majority dislike his taste in music?
they are the same. they are both human.

Eh? I’m sorry what was that? We have to always consider your existence, have to have constant reminders of just how Gay you are just so… we notice? Gay Pride Marches will never be an ok thing; they’re in-your-face, irritating, and generally insulting. We know you’re there; we just don’t care if you are. So stop getting in our faces and maybe we’d let you be. I’ve walked through a gay pride march, and I have had difficulty ever since not attaching stereotypes to gays ever since. I don’t want to, but with your pride… of nothing really important… you make it very difficult. If I was to go on a “SA pride march” through TWC, hell everyone would know I existed, and I’d be able to register my pride of being SA, but if anything I’d be more disliked then ever before for being a nuisance. That’s all gay pride marches manage, to increase homophobia and dislike of gays, in exactly the same way.

the very point of the article is that we have to emphasise our difference to point to a difference in treatment and lack of equality and thereby gain rights.
yes, under Gay Liberation, pride was all about throwing it in your faces. We didn't give a damn what you guys thought, gay movements in those days were segregationist, it was the days fater Stonewall when we wanted nothing whatsoever to do with the heterosexist society.
now get this
i wasn't even ALIVE when gay liberation died a death.
Prides continue, but their importance and value long since changed. Peter tatchell even laments the loss, but then, he's always been an activist.

so few gay people are like you say. so few have any interest in gay politics. more people will turn up for pride now because its a massive party, gay pride is to gay people what the BBC Proms might be to a classical fan.
oh, and by the way, most gay prides last 3 days, some last 8. Gay Pride is more than just a parade, FAR more. Brighton's not a big enough town to parade around for 8 days anyway.

the desire to engage in big gay gestures, to flaunt sexuality is dying among gay youth, i know from personal experience. and the reason is simple. As a gay member of the aforementioned society once told me on our forum "You and people like you are obsolete. I have all the rights I could ever want or need.". As the reason for gay prides fade, so will the expression of gay culture and identity. As peter tatchell says in the article i cite as the source for my own, In the absence of straight supremacism and privilege, the need (and desire) to differentiate between sexual orientations will decline and become irrelevant. No-one will care who’s gay or hetero; it won’t matter anymore. People will be accepted whoever they love. (Tatchell, P. ‘As homophobia is conquered, will gay identity disappear?’ Gay Times March 2007 p85)

Soon I will set up the Gray pride march. I will remind all of the Gray clan identity, and bring forth all Gray’s in Scotland and elsewhere to join me in preaching our identity as an important and integral part of Scottish society. All who oppose us are racists and supporters of Scot clan warfare and so should have legal cases filed against them for inciting hatred.

oh, i'm sorry, i didn't realise the Gray clan had been oppressed so badly, i didn't realise that it was still prohibited for members of the clan to marry, or that until recently you couldn't serve in the armed forces, or could be legally discriminated against in employment. i didn't realise that it was possible to refuse to serve you in a shop, or give you a hotel room simply because you were part of the Gray clan....

In the old days, when the Gray’s were discriminated against by the Scots, as a lesser part of the Stuarts, they were not represented enough in Scot society.
Yes I am being extreme, in my own school people make fun of me for being of French origin, others for being Pakistani, others for being ginger, gay, geeky, unsporting. You note, being gay is only one of many things facing teenagers. Don’t make yourself more of a victim then you are.

oh i agree, being gay is only one of the problems faced. but i don't make the statistics i quoted up out of thin air.

Gays once hung for buggery, no more, now such issues as adoption and marriage are in the courts, homosexuality have come a long way. But how often to you see women in Gay pride marches? How many lesbian pride marches are there? I’ve never noticed many myself, maybe it just shows how much more sensible the fairer sex is.

i'm going to b'ham pride with 1 gay guy and a big bunch of lesbians... so quite a lot
would you like to see pictures from a previous one?
tough
oh look, big bunch of lesbians

ooo more lesbians, the womens rugby team no less!



tbh, i doubt you will, but to see how wrong you are, have a look through this photo album from BBc Birmingham on their pride 2006.

gay as a generic term dates back to gay activism again, while we still say gay pride, these days its more common to use the word Queer to refer to stuff, and gay for queer men, lesbian for queer women.

tBP - If I've misinterpreted anything feel free to correct me. I think no one has more experience, or a right to, argue with this.

go right ahead!

Recently, in Scotland, it has been proposed that doctors do not ask their little patients "where's your mother?" or "where's your father?", but "where's your tutor?".

i'm by no means in favour of political correctness...
parent/guardian is the common form in england

I also find it hilarious that every homophobe is afraid that gays might check them or do stuff to them. I mean seriously do you really think you are that attractive, methinks you might be overestimating your attractiveness.

more to the point, if i know someone is straight, why would i even bother going beyond commenting to a friend that he looks good? I don't care how good looking a straight guy is, coming on to him isn't going to get me anywhere, so i'm not going to waste my time trying, when i could be coming on to a gay guy, who probably looks better, and will have at least some possibility of liking me in return. The exception to the rule are gaybars, when any man is fair game, on the assumption any man in there is likely to be gay. that said, straight men in gays bars stand out like a sore thumb, they're incredibly easy to pick out lol... straight women are much more comfortable there.

There's where we disagree: the child is the only one with rights when it comes to adoption

precisely, Ummon. This is why the courts will grant both adoption and parental responsibility to a gay parent.
the childs best interest is the ONLY factor the courts are willing to consider, and everything else is irrelevant. They don't care if a parent is gay or not, so long as he can be the best parent for the child.

the real question is can a gay person be a good parent
the research says yes

In Re G (Children) [2005] EWCA Civ 462 it was stated that “a person fulfilling an important parental role can expect the court to make every effort to support the continuation of that relationship”.

and also of note
[T]here is no evidence to suggest that lesbian women or gay men are unfit to be parents or that psychosocial development among children of lesbian women or gay men is compromised relative to that among offspring of heterosexual parents. Not a single study has found children of lesbian or gay parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect relative to children of heterosexual parents. Indeed, the evidence to date suggests that home environments provided by lesbian and gay parents are as likely as those provided by heterosexual parents to support and enable children's psychosocial growth. - American Psychological Association, Lesbian and Gay Parenting (2005) available online at http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html

[Ummon]

There's where we disagree: the child is the only one with rights when it comes to adoption. Social engineerings on the nature of family to please this or that minority, will always be unwelcome to me.

And I add, this is also morally wrong. A sign of the arrogance of contemporary man, which as all hybris, will lead to ate and nemesis.

[Sosobra]

There's where we disagree: the child is the only one with rights when it comes to adoption. Social engineerings on the nature of family to please this or that minority, will always be unwelcome to me.

.

That view has been used to deny minorities rights since the dawn of 19th century. Society and the family unit like everything changes past mistakes are realized and righted. I see no difference here.

It is not appeasement it is simply giving them what is rightful theirs.

[Ummon]

I fail to consider it a right.

A right pertains the nature of human beings. Nobody denies human (whatever their sexual pereferences) beings the right to reproduce according to natural proceedings, which besides, are set in our genetic/neural programming.

The more we try to assert our freedom over our nature, the more we become miserly. Already civilization causes a lot of suffering, let's try not to make it excessive: that is my advice.

Because civilization is not undestructible.

[Ummon]

Guardian is no better, and that was the other proposed name...

precisely, Ummon. This is why the courts will grant both adoption and parental responsibility to a gay parent.
the childs best interest is the ONLY factor the courts are willing to consider, and everything else is irrelevant. They don't care if a parent is gay or not, so long as he can be the best parent for the child.

Well that is an excellent proposition, in principle. I fear that, though, the interest of the child is to have the most possible variety in parent genders (biological genders) which is two.

the real question is can a gay person be a good parent
the research says yes

A gay person can be an excellent parent, in him/herself infact.

In Re G (Children) [2005] EWCA Civ 462 it was stated that “a person fulfilling an important parental role can expect the court to make every effort to support the continuation of that relationship”.

and also of note
[T]here is no evidence to suggest that lesbian women or gay men are unfit to be parents or that psychosocial development among children of lesbian women or gay men is compromised relative to that among offspring of heterosexual parents. Not a single study has found children of lesbian or gay parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect relative to children of heterosexual parents. Indeed, the evidence to date suggests that home environments provided by lesbian and gay parents are as likely as those provided by heterosexual parents to support and enable children's psychosocial growth. - American Psychological Association, Lesbian and Gay Parenting (2005) available online at http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html

As single parents in a couple of two different genders, I concur. Notice also, that aside from this basic consideration, many more would be possible.

1) On the political nature of this statement, and others before it, in psychology and psychiatrics, as attested by the very footnotes of DSM consensus conference, which attribute certain decisions (which I happen to share on the other hand) to purely political motives.
2) On the irrelevance of psychological, personal parent fitness, regarding considerations which are biological, and matter of law.

[Ummon]

It's not a matter of reaction, infact. I foresee bad consequences if gay marriage/adoption is introduced: practically, in terms of general functioning of our society.

[Sosobra]

It's not a matter of reaction, infact. I foresee bad consequences if gay marriage/adoption is introduced: practically, in terms of general functioning of our society.

What bad consequences do you speak of do you specifics or is it more of Han Solo "I have got a bad feeling about this" .

[Silver Guard]

Quetzalcoatl: I have a gay friend, I have been in a pride march (actualy it practicaly ran me down in the middle of london). I am perfectly able to befriend and like gays. However I abhore the habit of some self-obsessed individuals of ramming it down people's throats. Hey, if they go to a convention of gays, I won't bother them, but if they march down the street shouting slogans and waving flags I am not going to be best pleased.

Sosobra: You'd have to be self-hating to manage that, and in which case you're hardly going to admit to being bisexual or gay

[Silver Guard]

Break down of the nuclear family unit, the vanguard of which we already see today, slowly eroding family and moral values in society, especialy lower-classed society. This will accelarate once the mother/father unit is removed. A father/father partnership leads to excessive protective/restrictive behavior without the love provided by a mother, leading to a backlash of violent teenagers. A mother/mother relationship with love but no restriction leads to soft-skinned and unruly teens.
Either extreme upsets the balance which maintains the nuclear family.