Team Opifex differentiation and Opifex rank changes

[Hader]

I was thinking about possibly having some differentiation between the Team Opifex nominations and the Single person Opifex holders.

Basically, it gives any team nominated for Opifex a different title than 'Opifex'. It would give a nice sense of differentiation between the teams and the individual modders who have the rank. Keep in mind that Opifex is not a purely modding associated rank - as the Constitution states, it can be awarded to any member with any exceptional input to the forum other than staff. Its just that most of this input is from modding and modders (Lord Rahl, I beleive though, had quite a few contributions aside from modding?).
Team Opifex nominations though are for modding and the modding team.

While it really isnt of utmost importance or necessity, I think it would be nice for modding team and individual Opifex rank holders to have their own rank title.

Here are a few potential names for a modding teams 'Opifex' title. Excuse my Latin if it is really that bad...


“Manus Opificis”
“Omne Opifices”
“Omne Opifex”

[makanyane]

I'm sure this was proposed with best of intentions but I would oppose the idea. I don't like idea of further proliferation of the ranks generally and I think this could get taken to mean that one version of 'Opifex' is superior over others.

Even if everyone else thinks that people should be badged differently according to whether their main contributions were as part of a mod team or for individual contributions to the site, then splitting it by method of proposal wouldn't easily achieve that. From current examples in vote; I've been proposed largely for work within mod team, but that's counted as an individual proposal because 'rest of team' (Halie) was already proposed elsewhere. There are others in the mod team proposals - Alpaca being probably best example, whose arguably more important contribution to site / TW is as 'individual' with modding tools etc...
I suppose anomalies like that could get sorted out but I really don't see the point in trying to formalise this sort of split.

If other people want to see a modding / non modding version of Opifex badge, (rather than team / individual), then I suppose that could be done in same way as for Artifex (or whatever it is now called) and recipient could choose different graphic after award?

[Halie Satanus]

I'm sure this was proposed with best of intentions but I would oppose the idea. I don't like idea of further proliferation of the ranks generally and I think this could get taken to mean that one version of 'Opifex' is superior over others.

Agreed, would a hall of fame for Opifex be preferable? i could put a sticky in the Mod com with the Opifex holders and what they were awarded it for. Of course the team proposals have to pass first.

[Hader]

A PM I got from a non-civitate/artifex on the matter. I think he put it very well. I shall have him remain anonymous for now I suppose...

I agree with your suggestion that Individual Opifex and Team Opifex ought to be two different entities. The reason for this is that, despite the request for Dev Team leaders to make the judgement call on who should be nominated, modders who have made far less contributions than others will be nominated to some extent on the coat tails of other team members. That's just a fact.

So it would be far better to have a badge that reflected that the person's involvement in the Team was being rewarded rather than an individual award being applied to such divergent levels of commitment and skill (and thus contribution to the TW community as a whole).

Ideally the whole thing should be disassociated from rank anyway - the awards are a much better way to go imho.

An award can be given to anyone or any team deemed worthy but I am not sure what rank means - is it about the wider community of TW players and modders or is it just about TWC itself? The greatest contributor in the modding community may not even be a citizen of TWC...

But as you may know, my feelings on patronage and the nature of the rank philosophy are that the first should be done away with and the second founded more upon merit.

But these last points aside, I think the differentiation you suggest would be a step in the right direction

It was interesting to see the votes for team and other opifex results.

I drew the conclusion that there were less 'votes against' when the person was popular or 'seen' to be contributing to the site whereas there were a lot more votes against for the modding teams et. al.

I can only draw the conclusion that a good proportion of the voters are against the idea of team or modding Opifex positions and feel it should be linked with contribution (or perceived contribution) to the site - for certainly the sacrifice, work and quality of those teams proposed could not be questioned.

Therefore, the award is not being seen as based on merit as it should and as it was explained for these offers of Opifex by a good number of voters (25% for sure).

This may be more evidence of the need to have an award disassociated from forum ranks. If people are voting on the same issue with such differing ideas of why they are voting then that is not ideal at all and will probably only lead to problems in the future.

[Halie Satanus]

I drew the conclusion that there were less 'votes against' when the person was popular or 'seen' to be contributing to the site whereas there were a lot more votes against for the modding teams et. al.

I can only draw the conclusion that a good proportion of the voters are against the idea of team or modding Opifex positions and feel it should be linked with contribution (or perceived contribution) to the site - for certainly the sacrifice, work and quality of those teams proposed could not be questioned.

Looking beyond the rank element which isn't really an issue as it can be deferred, Opifex is an award given for merit, the only reason the votes against teams are higher is the tendency of the voters to vote down awards that upset the illusionary balance, i could say part of my intention was to try and put a little pressure on that way of thinking, also i could say i wanted to see if the theory that the Curia is waking up to a less elitist mind set is true, i think it is, six months ago these proposals would have died a death, i could say....gahh you get the drift.

What i did was propose a selection of mods I've played to one degree or another (and rummaged around their files) knowing what it takes to make a full conversion i thought they deserved recognising for their efforts and as it stands so do enough of the other members of the site.

What i will say though is i think i and Anon would be a lot happier if Opifex votes were open to the whole site, it is after all an award given mostly for modding and the vast majority of fans are out there.

Now can i get a foot rub if i guess who anon is....

[the Black Prince]

it might have been better if you'd left opifex as an individual award for individual achievement and used a triumph instead, which is perfectly designed for rewarded teams and every member of the team.

Certainly, a triumph is somewhat less than tangible now, but that will change, and all those who have been awarded them will get the medal for it too.

I see no reason to change the rank when there's already an award on the books that does exactly what you ask of "Team Opifex" without the additional requirements that members meet citizenship standards or become citizens

[Hader]

There is also the issue of them becoming citizens, and who will be their patrons, etc etc...

Not the biggest issue, but still there. However it does go to show you how different Team Opifex and individual Opifex are...

[Tom Paine]

Not really, since they do not need patrons, and since (once they have been passed by the CB, which they have to be) they are clearly worthy of citizen rank anyway... I really don't like the differentiation idea, it really does just add another layer of snobbery in terms of rank to the fora to no real benefit.

[the Black Prince]

*shrugs* i don't, and still don't see the need for team opifex awards, and i think we've set a very poor precedent here with them.

[Tom Paine]

I tend to disagree. The precedent we have set is that those worthy of the Opifex rank for modding work as a team will be granted it. How is this poor precedent to set on any level whatsoever?

[the Black Prince]

because people vote for the team, and those members chosen by the team receive it. Few people here will vote against a team, simply to vote against one member on the list who they believe is undeserving

[Tom Paine]

Then in future maybe the identities of those team members the team leader feels worthy should remain unknown until the vote succeeds, and should not be revealed if it fails, rather than removing the idea as a whole.

[the Black Prince]

because opifex is awarded to people not teams. we don't give the badge to the team, but to the people.

[Tom Paine]

Its given to the people on the team by virtue of their achievement as a team, not their individual achievements, ergo...

[Halie Satanus]

because opifex is awarded to people not teams. we don't give the badge to the team, but to the people.

The royal we?

From what i saw the proposals were put before the citizens and they voted in favour.

So a minor change in TWC culture occurred and yet the fabric of the Parliament is still intact, Opifex is now seen as a rank which can be obtained by either making a substantial contribution as an individual or as an almost completely unknown team member, and that's a bad thing!! why???

[the Black Prince]

the collective. the curia. the curia didn't award FATW with Opifex, they awarded MasterOfNone et al with Opifex

its not a bad thing that people can be recognised for the modding achievements, of course its not, what is bad is the way its done.

Say you propose a list of 5 modders for contributions to Great Mod. Now everybody really likes Great Mod and thinks its excellent, nobody wants to vote no to a proposal that rewards Great Mod and the people who work on it, but people do have problems with granting the award to Modders 4 and 5 on the list.

To refuse to grant Opifex to those people, the Curia would have to also vote no to Modders 1 2 3 who they very much want to reward, and would also appear to be voting no to rewarding Great Mod.

This especially as true as the vote is not on Great Mod, or has anything to do with Great Mod, Great Mod is merely the achievement that allows Modders 1 - 5 to be proposed for this reward.

To reward and recognise Great Mod as a collective achievement, there is a far better system that already exists that was created expressly for the purpose oof rewarding collaborations and team efforts - Triumphs, and its a procedure that doesn't additionally prevent Modders 1 2 3 being voted on for Opifex individually and on their merits for their achievements as that award is designed for.

[Halie Satanus]

If a mod was that great and the provided list had x amount of names on it then x amount of people are voted on, the voters should have no reason not to vote for any of the candidates, if you dislike the Mod abstain. I hope your not trying to reserve the right not to vote for the efforts of individual team members on some premise other than their contributions to the Mod proposed, that would be wholly unethical and totally against the spirit of the award.

Unless your trying to tell me you would want the voters to enquire as to the exact contributions of the individuals within the proposed mod, well i would applaud such dedication to the facts, though i am somewhat cynical at this suggestion.

I'm not saying Team proposals were a perfect solution but that's what we have, and the voters agreed to them, even you supported.

I'm also not saying that in future Triumphs aren't worth doing, but as they are in a disorganised state at the moment......Besides i would still have proposed a ton of Opifex and in doing so clogged up the Parliament, a state of affairs i wanted to avoid as voter apathy would undoubtedly set in and worthy candidates would have failed.

[Sétanta]

A Triumph for good modding teams is far better than spamming the rank, which we just did.

[Tom Paine]

"Spamming" the rank? How were they less worthy of the rank than, say, mak or hs, or Uranos? Was their work of lower standard, or easier, or something?

[DaVinci]

I can understand both opinions to some extent.

Modding merits and Opifex rank:
Well, the problem is existent, just to see the real effort and skills of some modders isn't possible at all for the most voters, as long they (the modders) aren't very popular and active in the TWC board here ... you get it, i guess, what i would like to say. There are many skilled modders out there behind the curtains ... , which would meet the merit-requirements for Opifex or at least for Artifex, but aren't active and popular in TWC.

Oh, in this relation, i'm all for the thing, that the Opifex rank is exclusively for modding merits and not for other board contributions. And i guess, that was also the origin idea to split the ranks. Same should be the case for Artifex. As we all now, the most diligent/busy modders don't do much within the curia. So, for that, it makes no sense to keep the requirement to meet the requirements for being a "worthy" twc citizen for Artifexes and Opifexes at all, but, only in the sense that they are members for a while (whatever post counts) and that they aren't banned recently and other possible bad behaviour in the board.

However, i know what the answer will be by the Black Prince, and i can, as said, understand the argument, "there is just the triumph-option for team awards".
On the other hand, does it really hurt the TWC in the whole, if modders get ranks for modding merits in this way, as Halie said ... . It at least makes it possible, that just those modders behind the curtains get a deserved rank, which they would never get on the former usual way with the personal nomination, and that is, in my opinion the strong argument, to keep the team nominations.

And just one last critizism to the whole nomination-system of citizens (whatever rank) is, that just only the popular members can get those ranks ... i guess, that is natural and okay for the civitate-rank-way-and-higher, but just not correct for the modding members, due to above mentioned reasons.

So in conclusion of that, the team award thing, initiated by Halie is an improvement for more consideration of the modding scene, and as modder, i can only, well done, Halie (i had a some slight other opinion on this issue as you know, but i'm converted now ) ... and a good direction, to give TWC its home and higher interest for the TW modder community in the whole.

And as i'm a bit offtopic: Well, more rank-differentions make no sense at all in my opinion, as others said, it would only lead to a higher grade of elitism in the heads of any of the rank holders and the non-rank-holders.
In this relation: Where is the idea of more democracy within TWC, if you guys always intent to make people different? Eh?