Religion & Politics are Linked

[Oldgamer]

Before I get into the meat of this thread, I wish to say that for every theory or observation having to do with humans as social creatures, there are exceptions. I do not wish to generalize at all. That said ...

There have been a large number of threads regarding religion at TWC, within the last several weeks. Most of these end up as a war between believers and non-believers.

I do not desire to start another thread that ends up as the usual "my belief is right, and your belief is wrong" mayhem. The purpose of this thread is to examine the notion that one's religious belief ... or lack of same ... have a direct effect on one's political positions, and vice-versa.

I grew up in a fundamentalist, Protestant, blue-collar family. Our fundamentalist (Church of the Nazarene, which could hardly be called "fundamentalist", today) beliefs had a direct effect upon our social and political beliefs, and the kinds of candidates that my parents voted for. Not surprisingly, we voted a straight Republican ticket in every election.

As I grew to manhood, my religious beliefs impacted directly upon how I voted (my first election was the 1972 Presidential Election, in which I voted, along with my entire family, for Richard Nixon). I was already distinctly opposed to the idea of abortion long before the Roe v. Wade decision, and have remained so.

However, there were periods when fundamentalist beliefs weren't everything that I imagined them to be. During these periods, I experimented with the other denominational affiliations, including the United Methodist period. Especially during the Methodist period, I didn't consistently vote straight Republican, but tended to vote for a few Democrats ... but only if they were pro-Life. For national offices, though, like President, Senator, etc., I always supported the GOP.

Once, when a Methodist Pastor at a campus Student Center reacted to a statement of mine with, "Atta boy! Now you're sliding down the slippery slope towards godless liberalism!", my own reaction was one of disgust, and reassessment. The reaction back to conservative religion, which would match my political conservatism, was inevitable after that.

I now belong ... and for the rest of my life will belong ... to the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, which is the most conservative church theologically, socially, and politically, in the Lutheran movement.

What do you believe, and does it affect your social and political beliefs?

... or is it a Chicken & Egg proposition, in your opinion?

[Zenith Darksea]

I am a member of the most theologically conservative (in the good sense of the word 'conservative', rather than the more common sense of 'nasty and right wing') Christian group there is, the Orthodox Church, and that has brought me to a number of interesting conclusions.

Socially speaking, I'm rather conservative. I'm in favour of marriage as a social institution, I'm opposed to prostitution, unnecessary abortion, drugs and am in favour of respecting authority etc. However, in line with the Orthodox Church position, I support contraception quite wholeheartedly.

Intellectually, I am very liberal. I support in freedom of thought and belief, and am in favour of a free and democratic political system (though not one based on partisan lines; but that's a long story).

However, economically speaking, I'm very left wing. If it were only feasible I would support the abolition of the concept of ownership, but alas that's rather difficult in our current society and so I have to stop short at straightforward socialism. If anyone wonders at my support for such left wing economics, then just read the Book of Acts.

[Denny Crane!]

Highlights a massive difference between America and the UK where a decision like abortion has such a massive impact on political voting habits. I strongly suspect it is not even an issue over here and we are not so issue based.

So if I was to say I agree, only in the context of a heavily religous culture. I certainly don't think it should be linked after all, a government is there to represent everyones interests not just religious ones. It should be utiliterian all the way, what action brings the greater good to the country as a whole.

Pete

[Shaba Wangy]

I do not let my religious beliefs interfere with the greater social contract of which i am part. I am a great believer in personal freedom so long as it does not impinge on the freedom of others. When political questions arise, I deal with them as a citizen, not as a religious entity. Not everyone one does that. I believe that is a lack of consideration on their part.

[Chaigidel]

I firmly believe our religion should be kept as seperate as possible from politics though i cannot deny its influence, religion should be a private thing a totally private thing, politicians should not mention faith just positions.

overall though i believe it does have a great influence on all our politic.

[Oldgamer]

@Zenith
Some interesting thoughts you posted. Basically you are saying that you are socially conservative and fiscally liberal. Being Orthodox, I don't think that there is a lot of inconsistency there. My experience of Orthodox believers is that they tend to be less "me"-oriented, and more "we"-oriented than just about any other Christians. The social conservativism of contemporary Orthodox belief-structures is Biblically-based, and well-founded upon Orthodox tradition.

I know about the portion of Acts that you are speaking about. From my reading of it, the Bible indicates that it was something of a disaster for the early church. But I can see how you connect the dots with Socialism, based upon the experiment.

@Shaba
My main question to you is how you are able to separate yourself from your religious beliefs, when you walk into a voter's booth? Are you not part of the social contract, along with your religion?

@Chaigidel
What I say here could be directed to Shaba Wangy also. What is your religious tradition? It is not so well-known in the United States, because the media doesn't report it very often, that the Left has its religions-of-choice, just as the Right does. For example, the Unitarian Universalist Church ... which used to be Christian ... is the most Left-wing religious denomination in the country, followed closely by the United Church of Christ.

Indeed, the UCC recently had an advertising campaign on television which featured the notion that it is "open and affirming". What does this mean? From their website:

To say that a setting of the UCC (a local church, campus ministry etc.) is "Open and Affirming" means that it has publicly declared that "gay, lesbian, bisexual" (GLB) people (or those of all "sexual orientations") are welcome in its full life and ministry (e.g. membership, leadership, employment etc.) It bespeaks a spirit of hospitality and a willingness to live out that welcome in meaningful ways.
http://www.ucc.org/lgbt/ona.htm

It should be obvious that UCC members are not going to primarily support conservative causes, issues, or candidates ... if ever!

[Chaigidel]

I was raised Episcopalian Christian which is kinda like the religion for catholics who didnt want to seem like they werent hip so they called themselves protestant. but i wasnt forced to make any choices etc--- so i am a non denominational Deist i suppose( i studied many occult traditions so my faith is influenced by mysticism from all over the world)

I suppose im socially liberal/conservative because I believe in the death penalty and abortion-- death is death support or dont support

but I dont like gun control or drug control or censorship, I think we should spend big on the military as we have been etc
i want social medicine but to retain private ownership-- though i think the megacorp should have less power than it does
blah blah you get the picture i guess Ive voted mainly democratic just because enviromentalism i think is the most important issue for world governments.

[Kythras]

My mother is/was a non-practicing Catholic, but she still retains some of that metnality, and my dad set aside the Catholic church a long time ago (after having a passionate affair with it) and now hates organised religion (of any kind), but they're both very left wing. I have my first communion, and I went to confession once, and attended scripting until 7th grade, untill I got a teacher who, in a mixed scripture class (ie all religions mixed together), said "If you don't believe in God you will go to hell" or words to that effect. And that did it for religion in my eyes.

I'm very left wing, in almost every respect (abortion, gay marraige, de-criminalisation of some narcotics [though I'm against them, I think in the end it would be better], tolerance, etc), and I'm a Strong Agnostic Nontheist, I think my "faith" (for lack of a better word) is a product of my political alignment, not the other way 'round...

[Oldgamer]

I was raised Episcopalian Christian which is kinda like the religion for catholics who didnt want to seem like they werent hip so they called themselves protestant. but i wasnt forced to make any choices etc--- so i am a non denominational Deist i suppose( i studied many occult traditions so my faith is influenced by mysticism from all over the world)

I suppose im socially liberal/conservative because I believe in the death penalty and abortion-- death is death support or dont support

but I dont like gun control or drug control or censorship, I think we should spend big on the military as we have been etc
i want social medicine but to retain private ownership-- though i think the megacorp should have less power than it does
blah blah you get the picture i guess Ive voted mainly democratic just because enviromentalism i think is the most important issue for world governments.

Although Episcopalians tend to lean Left, many of them hold hard and fast to conservative theology. Your paragraphs above tend to reinforce the notion that the Episcopal Church in the United States and the Anglicans in the UK are a mix, and many people can go either way.

Consider this: In my home town of 20 thousand people, there are four Catholic churches (the buildings of two of them were erected by Irish immigrants in the 1850's and 60's). Though solidly blue collar, Democratic, and pro-union, most of these people tend to vote Republican on national elections. In 2004, expecting a landslide in this county, the Democrats predicted that the usual trend would be broken. There was a landslide, in favor George W. Bush. The issue: Abortion, and the Supreme Court.

@Kythras
Your signature is a hoot!

I know that this is almost inconceivable to you, at the present time. But consider what would happen if a series of events led you to become a member of the Assemblies of God. Do you think that you would still vote Left wing? Or, you became a member of the UCC? Do you think you would tend to change your vote to the Right?

You said your "'faith' (for lack of a better word)" is a product of your political alignment, and not the other way around. I don't doubt your sincerity in this, one little bit. But the fact is that you have a "faith". And that faith influences your political alignment just as surely as if you were a Southern Baptist.

Faith and political views are mutually-reinforcing, in my view.

[enoch]

I now belong ... and for the rest of my life will belong ... to the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, which is the most conservative church theologically, socially, and politically, in the Lutheran movement.

What do you believe, and does it affect your social and political beliefs?

... or is it a Chicken & Egg proposition, in your opinion?

This was an honest and well thought out statement - I would ask: are you sure you won't refine your views again as you have done in the past?

to your statement - I don't think it is a Chicken / Egg scenario.

Just about every single psychological and behaviorial (examined as subconscious / biological / cultural / instinctual) shows that the majority of people believe what they are told to believe.

You are member of the Missouri Synod I believe you said, so you are aware that the Lutheran Church as a whole differs with you on certain points of interpretation - yet you believe what your church fathers tell you - it seems to me from your story that whatever beliefs the church you belonged to at the time held, you held as well until you found fault, and moved to a new Church's beliefs. (this is not in any way meant to be a negative state)

Depending on whose statistics you believe, almost all Christians are born to Christian families (makes sense), in the US the majority of non practicing converts are reformed criminals or recovering addicts. This is the same for almost any religion in both the US and elsewhere -
ie - If you ain't born believing Jesu is the Christ, and you don't screw up real bad, you ain't never gonna believe Jesu is the Christ.

Religion, like all social schemas, is imprinted on the brain, so it stands to reason that children exposed to it live their life trying to remain within its confines.

Where you live determines your beliefs, how much you make, how much your parents made, your level of education. All of these things affect who we are and therefore how you vote.

What I am saying is that it is not your religion that determines your political views, but rather your upbringing (old schemas) and your geographical location (which is were new schemas come from).

Socialists/ Psychs / Philosophers / Biologists all agree on the overwhelming influence of schemas on the human psyche.

If you lived in a gay neighborhood in los angeles or a third world ghetto where 90% of the children starve to death, chances are someone with your history would eventually adopt ideas that allowed you to accept the new schema that are necessary for your success or you would move to someplace where your current schema still worked. This is an ongoing process, it is why people who have live in many different places tend to be able to find it easier to think outside of what they are told - ie they have been forced to adopt again and again and have learned to influence the schema rather than having the schema influence them - basically diversity allows you to overcome rather than being overwhelmed by schema

this does not mean that you change your beliefs, it means if you do not control the schema around you they change your beliefs for you -

choosing to define yourself by a religion is also not always an act of succumbing to schema, although if you beliefs are the same in everyway with everyone you hang out with, chances are you aren't thinking for yourself, unless you are the preacher doing the telling

I hope I did not offend anyone - I sincerely tried not to

(by the way, although used in many contexts, my use of the word schema is my own, in that it is the closest commonly understood term for what i a trying to convey with the word)

[Da Skinna]

I've never had a problem with people bringing their religious beliefs into politics---wait, yes I do.

That is, when people bring their beliefs into it, the "us" and "them" kinda beliefs, and try to make them into policies for others to adhere by. That, I have a huge problem with. People bringing in this aura of divine right into politics is a no-no, and never comes out with the expected outcome.

Religion and politics are closely one and the same because they both ask absolute faith in something flawed and man-made. They are inextricably together because they both possess a structure in which drives the need for corruption in some people.

The best we keep state and church apart, the better.

[Ma'ahes]

Hehe, how about this for religion affecting your political standing: I'm a republican Jew lol. Well, mostly on economic issues, not that much of a fan of neocons.....more of a moderate realist =).

Anyways, I'd think that religion and politics both are symptoms of one's beliefs--not religious, but just simply social views. These views then get represented in religious and political choices. So, it's not that hard to see why certain sects of the population vote a certian way. Then again, politicians have a nasty habit of tricking people into voting against their own well-being. For example, what's up with Kansas? (voting Rep when they should vote Dem)

[Tom Paine]

I'll respond to the premise of the original post that religion and politics are linked. Undeniably religion and political outlook are linked, but the extent to which they are is different for different people; for you, they are inextricably linked to the point of it being positively harmful, Oldgamer - as demonstrated by the following tale:

Once, when a Methodist Pastor at a campus Student Center reacted to a statement of mine with, "Atta boy! Now you're sliding down the slippery slope towards godless liberalism!", my own reaction was one of disgust, and reassessment. The reaction back to conservative religion, which would match my political conservatism, was inevitable after that.

Your reaction was not to stick by something you believed because you believed it, but to reject it because of a fallacious (slippery slope, anyone?) argument, and an attack on yourself; such a link is positively harmful to the person who is subject to it since it prevents, to a great extent, independent political and religious thought.

[the Black Prince]

when religion takes such an active role in politics, and a church, as well as being a religious organisation, is also a political lobby group, i think its inevitable that the follows of that religion would support the party or candidate that their church supports.

i think your comment about godless liberalism is rather interesting though. Its hardly the case in politics that religious lobby groups are found only on the right hand side of the political spectrum, nor is it the case that religious groups are universally socially conservative, even christian ones!

so long as the church plays a role in politics, i think personal religion and politics will inevitably be conjoined.
question though
if a member of your religion was standing in an election, but not for a party you normally support, would you vote to support the person of the same faith as you, or the party?

[Thanatos]

For certain issues, I will vote as I believe religiously.

Politics-wise, it depends who is a better keeper of the Constitution.

[Sosobra]

I try to keep my religious ideas out of my political. I do this by the realization that my religious ideas may not be entirely right and that I should try as little as possible to impose my metaphysics on the society as a whole.

Its a hard balancing act one that I learned form my mother who Is Catholic but is also (not to say that they are incompatible.) a feminist and very socially liberal.

I think its easier for me because as an Agnostic (Empirical) my ideas on God do not have much to do with politics.

[Thanatos]

Its a hard balancing act one that I learned form my mother who Is Catholic but is also (not to say that they are incompatible.) a feminist and very socially liberal.

Wow. If that's not a paradox, then I don't know what is.

Then again, how is your mother liberal?

[enoch]

Wow. If that's not a paradox, then I don't know what is.

Then again, how is your mother liberal?

she likely follows her own belief system but classifies herself as Catholic and/or worships using Catholic settings and rituals

that is just a guess though

[Oldgamer]

This thread is extremely difficult to deal with, for me, because I don't want it to end up in the Mud Pit.

@Zenith
I've known atheists of the Left and Right. One of my best friends, who just died recently (at the age of 77), was an atheist and one of the most conservative & moral people I've ever known. She based her personal morality on the works of Ayn Rand. She voted straight Republican, and hated Bill Clinton with a vehemence I think I've never encountered before or after. Irishmafia, this paragraph tends to support what you said about atheists.

Another atheist I've known was Dr. Thomas Vernon, the author of A Philosophy of Language. He was a Marxist, and ... as he stated it ... was "reduced to voting for the Democrats simply because they had foreclosed the Communist Party by adopting its program!" He was a virulent anti-Christian. Also interesting is the fact that he taught former President Clinton philosophy of language (which might explain why the man could parse the word "is" the way he did).

My experience of agnostics is that they tend to lean rather more to the Left, for the most part. A great many of the people who sit in the left-leaning churches of America are, in reality, agnostics.

@Thanatos
I agree with what you said about a person being both a Catholic and a feminist being a hard balancing act. There is a strong movement of women in the Catholic Church demanding their right to enter the Priesthood, among other things (it may happen in about a thousand years!).

@Sosobra
Why try to keep your religion away from your political views? It's part of who you are, as a person, and should be part of how you arrive at virtually every decision in your life.

Like you (I'm just guessing), I would be completely opposed to creating a "Church of America". It would violate not only my religious views but my reading of the Contitution.

But when it comes to something like abortion, I cannot divorce myself from Christ's words, "Suffer the little children to come unto me, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven." If a political party or a candidate is pro-abortion, I cannot vote for them, in good conscience. For example, if Rudy Giuliani is the GOP's nominee for President in 2008, I'll leave a lifetime of voting Republican behind me (probably voting for whoever the candidate of the Constitution Party is). This, in spite of the fact that I think Rudy would be a "bangup" good President.

My position on abortion has nothing to do with "imposing my will" upon anyone. It has everything to do with saving innocent lives, which my knowledge and beliefs about Christ would have me to do.

@Enoch
You are on my ignore list for getting too personal on the other thread. I don't know what you've said, but I undoubtedly will disagree with it. This will be my last word to you ...

@tBP
I didn't make the comment about "godless liberalism", a campus Methodist minister did!

As to your question, I would vote for him, or against him, based upon his issues stances. Next year, I have two issues that make or break my decision on a candidate: abortion, and the war.

@Ozy
I thought my reaction to the "pastor" was independent thought. Hmmm...

Independent thought is not something encouraged in American academia. To become tenured, I had to hide my own social/political beliefs. The nice thing about gaining tenure is that you can become who you really are. After this happened, my classes were invariably full. People enjoyed hearing "alternate" opinions!

[enoch]

@Enoch
You are on my ignore list for getting too personal on the other thread. I don't know what you've said, but I undoubtedly will disagree with it. This will be my last word to you ...

Ignoring the fact that you got personal first, talking down to me about the Gospel Of Mark, which you were wrong about - further evidenced by the fact that you "quit responding to me" after you were proved wrong and NOT after I got too personal

it can not matter if productive debate is your goal, if it is not, than by all means proceed as is

I will tell you that you can get personal with me all you want - my ideas stand above personal digs

and I do apologize on calling you out on the fact that you had clearly never studied the Gospel of Mark, and were just quoting your Bible, but you must admit it was funny and it did stop you in your tracks -

I will leave you with a well placed (paraphrased) quote-

"one of the greatest faults of the religious mind is their inability to separate the personal from the intellectual, the divine from the real..." - ae