I had an idea for the romans...and their enemies....

[rory o'kane]

well, two actually: firstly, roman deserters as a recruitable troop type/merc for those areas that often used them ( i know the Dacians were qutie fond of using them).
secondly: cohors evocata: the re-enlisted veterans of the legions (a post marian unit, obv, with perhaps different equipment to the legionaires. Perhaps having individual ones for individual legions? just a suggestion?

[cherryfunk]

Were the evocata separated into their own units? I thought they were mixed back in with the cohorts.

Also, what about allied troops? Fully 50% of Republican armies were allied troops, set up similarly to the Roman units but probably of somewhat lesser quality.

[rory o'kane]

yes, i know. this isnt a bad idea. RTR has italian spearmen and swordsmen, and EB has socii alies too.
and of the Evocati,yes they were seperated into their own cohort, if there were enough of them re-enlisting in the legion (usually in the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd cohorts). otherwise they had their own century/centuries within the first 3 cohorts, or were used as centurions etc. Sometimes they were used as the general's bodyguards (like Caesar using 100 mounted Legio X legionaires as bodyguards when he went to meet the german Aristovius, leading to the unit being named the Legio X Equestris). incidentally, i THINK EB has something similar.

[cherryfunk]

I really like how the Italian/socii units add some variety to the Roman roster, it would be great if we could add them. EB also has several lower quality skirmisher units that aren't velites but rather unarmored levy skirmishers (I think both slingers and javelins).

[rory o'kane]

ah yes, accensii, and Roarii ( not too sure on my spelling). personalyl i wouldnt use them, there's barely enough room in an army as it is

[Angel]

If your going for historically the romans didnt had hastii princpe and tiarr right off the back. They had Roraii accensi hastii. Hastii's were considered to be the best. Than yrs past they got older and soon turned in to princpe and so forth. I think adding Roraii and accensi in the game would be great and If theres a script where a certain period, where theres an another "reform" where you can recruit hastii,princpe,tiarri. Whiles in the beginnig of the game you can only recruit roraii and accensi. There is models for those 2 units. I believe Res Gesatae had them. Yes italian units would be great asset too. Make rome like carthage.

[rory o'kane]

it wasnt quite as tight fisted with grants of citizenship as carthage mind.

[Angel]

What i mean when I said like carthage is. Rome is very plained in, it only has a certain number of units. And its mirrors of each other. I mean I know for a fact Rome had different type of units besides what RTW offers. In republic before Marian Reform. Heres the information about, The Roman army. This is before the reform from polybius, and livy.

Prior to the Celtic invasion, and from about 500 B.C. the Roman army consisted of around 6000 soldiers. These were made up from a levy (Latin. Legio) of all eligible Roman citizens between the ages of 17 and 46. The prime eligibility criteria was simply land ownership at this time. These soldiers were heavy spearmen, almost identical to the Greek Hoplites from the "classical era." In the earliest days of the republic (c. 509 B.C.) Romans organised these legios into straight forward "armies" of around 500 - 1000 men with very little similarity between them.

Rome was probably founded as a compromise between Etruscan residents of the area and Italic tribes nearby. The kings were Etruscan. Their language was still spoken by noble families in the early empire, although sources tell us it was dying out. Under the first king, Romulus, society consisted of gentes, or clans, arranged in 80 curiae and three tribes. From them were selected 8000 pedites (infantry) and 800 celeres (cavalry) of gentes-connected men. The decimal scheme seems already to have been in existence: one unit of fast troops for every 10 of foot.At first, under the Etruscan Kings, the massive Greek phalanx was the most desired battle formation. Early Roman soldiers hence must have looked much like Greek hoplites.

From the wealthiest classes were recruited the heavy-armed infantry, equipped like the Greek hoplite warrior with helmet, round shield (clipeus), greaves and breastplate, all of bronze, and carrying a spear (hasta) and sword (not the gladius). In battle they followed the principle of "two forward, one back." The first and second acies, or lines of battle (principes, hastati), were forward; the triarii, or "third rank" (containing the veterani. or "old ones") was held in reserve. From the name, hastati, we can deduce that the hasta, a thrusting spear, was the weapon of choice. Triariis were equipped with a long spear, or pike, a shield and heavy armor.

Maybe Tone can model some of the units and give right equipment. Hastiis never used a gladius, they used italian sword. Also They used a spear not a pilum.

The remaining class or classes (rorarii) were light-armed with the javelin (verutum). They were no doubt used for skirmishing, which provided some disruption of enemy ranks before the main event. The officers as well as the cavalry were either not in the six classes but were drawn from citizens who were enrolled as patricians of senatorial rank or equestrians (equites),also known as knights,they were of the first class. These were the aristocrats. Cavalry remained an aristocratic arm up to the introduction of motorized warfare.

Rorarii played a skirshmish role in the Roman army. They should be put in the Game for this reason. Dvk I hope you would give in this ideas.

More information of the Roman army.



Undoubtedly the most important change was the abandonment of the use of the Greek phalanx. The legio, or "levy", was introduced at this time, with a structure of manipuli ("handsful"). A heavier shield, the scutum, took the place of the clipeus, and a heavier throwing spear, the pilum, was introduced. The line of battle was more open so that a rank could hurl a volley, preferably downhill, breaking the ranks of the enemy.

The first two lines carried pila. The rear rank, remaining in close order, and armed with hastae, were the pilani (not from pilum but from pilus, "closed rank"), in front of which were the antepilani carrying pila. In addition to these changes, the men began to receive pay, making a professional army possible.

The full equipage of arms and armor were the helmet with colored crest and face protectors, breastplates or chain mail (if you could afford it), greaves, the parma (a round shield), the scutum, an oblong wrap-around of hide on a wood frame, edged with metal, with the insignia of the legion painted on, the pilum, the hasta velitaris, a light javelin of about 3 feet with a 9-inch metal head, and a short sword they borrowed from Spanish tribes, the gladius. It was both pointed for thrusting and edged for slashing.

These arms could be combined in various ways, except that one line of battle had to be armed the same way. Most typical was a line of principes armed with pila, gladii, and defended by the scuta. The hastati could be armed that way or with the hasta and parma. The velites bore the hasta velitaris and depended on running to get them away after a throw, which is why only the young were chosen for that job.

Here dvk use this information for the AI formations and Human Formations. Also Ill see if I can form this Roman Formation right in the export_descr_unit.txt


Roman formations were open. The last thing they wanted was to be crushed together and cut down without being able to use their weapons, as they had been so many times before, and as so many armies who never studied Roman warfare were to be later. Every man must by regulation be allowed one square yard in which to fight, and square yards were to be separated by gaps of three feet.Now came the moment of battle. The turmae and the bands of velites (skirmishers) made forays opportunistically, trying to disrupt the ranks of the enemy or prevent them from crossing the stream (if there was one). While they were doing this the rest of the legion advanced. At a signal, the skirmishers retired through or around Roman ranks (there probably were trumpet calls, but we know little of them).

Picking up speed, the hastati launched pila. These heavy missiles had a range of about 100 yards. On impact they drove through shields and armor both, pinning men together and disrupting the line. Just before the hastati were to close, the principes launched a second volley over their heads. The hastati now drew gladii and closed. So great was the impact, we hear from Caesar, that sometimes the men would jump up on the enemy shields to cut downward.

What happened next depended on the success of the hastati. If they were victorious, they were joined by the principes, who merged into their line to fill the gaps and make up losses. The triarii moved to the flanks to envelop the enemy. If the hastati were not victorious, they merged backward into the principes. The third line remained in reserve unless the other two failed, in which case the front two merged into the third.

If you want the source I can find it and post in this thread.

[tone]

I guess the key question is at what point the premarian troops changed? If we're changing our start date to 220 or so, it will almost certainly have an impact on what format the Roman army took

[dvk901]

The Pre-Marian army as depicted in this mod is accurate...minus perhaps, mercenaries and allied units. It's very well documented that after their defeat at the hands of the Gauls in 390BC, they reformed their military to the 'Manipule' configuration....consisting of Hastati, Principe and Triarii.
Whatever other allied troops were present, were not part of this configuration. Allied warriors, by the way, were most of the Cavalry the Romans had, aside from their own 'Equites'.
I'm sure there were many other types of units involved with helping the Romans, as they had many client and allied states, but the Republican military as depicted is accurate.

I like all the ideas here, but let's face it...the Romans use a good 1/3 of the available slots for units. As much as I am a Roman, I don't think it would be 'advantageous' to give them any more.

I am thinking hard on the 'veteranii' idea because I can do this without sacrificing any slots, and a Roman Slinger could be added using an existing Greek slot.

Evocati, though I'm sure were historical, present a recruitment problem...and seem a case of 'diminished returns' too me. Do you make them weaker and recruitable everywhere...then why would I want them in my limited army when I could have a stronger Legion Cohort? Do you make them stronger and resricted by AOR? Then what's to be gained? They won't 'fit' into the Legionary recruitment scheme unless you added hundreds of lines of code to allow it. (I'm serious!!)

Having converted the old useless town watch into a 'Light Infantry' unit, one could say this unit represents a lot of various allied units. (It needs a better set of unit cards, by the way) It is at least the equal of any other faction's universally recruitable unit, and was needed before the reforms.

I think what I'll do for the 'veteranii' is use the 'caesarian' slot unit that exists, and create a lesser unit (strength\defense wise), with smaller numbers, used to guard the estates the Roman's build. A nice tie in, actually, because they disappear after the reforms, and would appear then. as 'retired' Legionaries in the villas....but older and less ably equipped.

[Roman_Man#3]

the rorarii and accensi were from the Camillian roman army. There is no sure date as to when the polybian army reforms arrived, so I think just leave them as is. And someone said that they fought with the rorarii, accensi, and hastati. thats not right. They used the hastati, principes, and triarii. Rorarii and Accensi were reserve troops.

[Angel]

Roarri and Acensi werent RESERVE troops. They were made for softening the troops that were going to encounter with. Hastii were sent in to hopefully win the day. If they were losing they fall back and join with princpes. and so forth. The only reserve unit was the tiarri, and maybe principe. Roarii and ancensi was cojoined with the hastiis. They job was to soften the enemey until the rest of the army showed up, or hastiis. When hastii charge in after their pilums were throwned, or light javelins. Roarii were joined in with hastii's. I think having an Roarii unit and ancensii unit will be very interesting in post marian times and will make players feel more roman. There is models for these units.
I can prove that there was an Roarri, ancensii, hastii army. Principes,tiarri were older forms of hastiis.

The velites of the Roman Republican army at its height in the 2nd century BC were possibly soldiers who would have comprised the earlier rorarii and accensi classes, these being comprised of the supposedly unreliable and otherwise poor combatants of the original fifth class Phalanx. In Polybius's "Rise of the Roman Empire", he states that the velites were usually the youngest of the soldiers. Though they still owned land, the velites were usually the poorer of the Roman military accepted classes, until the time of Marius, when the property qualification was dropped for military service.

Information about the Roarri and Ancensii.

Rorarii may have formed the final lines, or else provided a reserve thereby, in the ancient pre-Marius Roman army. They may have been used with the triarii in battle near the final stages of fighting, since they are recorded as being located at the rear of the main battle formation. (Note that the saying "Going to the Triarii" means that something has gone to the bitter end - as in reached the final line.)

They may have been similar in role to the accensi, acting as supernumeraries and filling the places of fallen soldiers as a battle or campaign wore on, or they may have been skirmishers akin to velites. Unfortunately, the evidence is so limited that it is difficult to understand what direct role the rorarii may have had, if any, in fighting. It seems most likely that they were not part of the line in the same way as triarii, principes and hastati were

Accensi

Accensi (from Latin; singular accensus) figure in both the army of the Roman Republic and as civil officers in the same period. Thus, an accensus was either a public officer who attended on several of the Roman magistrates; or a kind of supernumerary soldier who served to fill the places of those who were killed or disabled by their wounds, or otherwise bring up the ranks to strength.

Public officers summoned the people to the assemblies, and those who had lawsuits to court. They preserved order in the assemblies and the courts, and proclaimed the time of the day when it was the third hour, the sixth hour, and the ninth hour. An accensus in early times preceded the consul who was not carrying the fasces, and lictors without fasces walked behind him. Although the custom fell into disuse, it was restored by Julius Caesar in his first consulship. Accensi also attended on the governors of provinces, and were commonly freedmen of the magistrate they attended.

Supernumerary soldiers (also called adscripticii and in later times supernumerarii) followed the Roman army without having any military duties to perform and were taken one by one to supply any vacancies that might occur in the legions. According to the census of Servius Tullius, they were taken from the fifth class of citizens and were placed in battle in the rear of the army, behind the triarii, and seem to have acted sometimes as orderlies to the officers.

Equites Cavalrymen.
http://romans.etrusia.co.uk/images/roman_cavalry_lg.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structu...BC_-_510_BC.29

This wiki can prove when the date is for the reforms.

[Roman_Man#3]

are you talking about post marian rorarii and accensi?

And can you give me proof that says they were assault troops?


sorry for highjacking this thread.

[Angel]

Here are the Dates of Reforms.


Manipular legion (509 BC - 217 BC)
It was traditionally supposed that the army of the early Roman republic was created through the military Camillian Reforms of the semi-apocryphal figure of Marcus Furius Camillus, but Grant and others argue that the early republican army was rather created by natural evolution of the pre-existing centurial army, rather than through a singular and deliberate policy of reform.[9]

At this period an army formation of around 5000 men was known as a legion (Latin: legio). However, contrary to later legions of exclusively heavy infantry, the legions of the Republic consisted of mixed light and heavy infantry and therefore the term manipular army (an army based on units called maniples) is normally used to contrast to the later legionary army of the empire that was based around a system of cohort units. The manipular army of the Roman Republic was based partially upon social class and partially upon age and military experience. It therefore represents theoretically a "halfway house" between the earlier socially-divided army, and the later class-free armies of later years. In practice, as a matter of practicality, even slaves were at one time pressed into the army of the Republic.[10]

The manipular army gets its name from the tactical deployment of its heavy infantry into maniples, units of 120 men each from a single infantry class. The maniples permitted tactical movement of individual units of infantry on the battlefield within the framework of the greater army. This stratification was further assisted by the typical deployment of the maniples into three discreet lines (Latin: triplex acies) based on the three heavy infantry types of hastati, principes and triarii.[11] The first line, the hastati, were leather armoured infantry soldiers with an iron-clad wooden shield, 4 feet tall and a convex rectangle in shape, a sword known as a gladius, a brass helmet adorned with 3 feathers approximately 30cm in height, a brass cuirass, and two throwing spears known as pila: one the heavy pilum of popular imagination and one a slender javelin.[12]

The second line, the principes, were heavy infantry soldiers armed and armoured as per hastati, except wearing a coat of mail.[12] The triarii formed the third rank and were the last remnant of hoplite-style troops in the Roman army: they were armed and armoured as per the principes, except carrying a pike rather than the two pila.[12] A manipular legion would typically contain 1200 hastati, 1200 principes and 600 triarii.[13]

The heavy infantry of the maniples were supported by a number of light infantry (Latin: velites) and cavalry (Latin: equites) troops, typically 300 horsemen per manipular legion.[11] The cavalry was drawn primarily from the richest class of equestrians but additional cavalry (and light infantry) were drawn at times from the Socii and Latini of the Italian mainland. The equites cavalry was still drawn from the equestrian class of nobles in Roman society, and the remaining classes may have retained some slight parallel to social divisions within Roman society, but in theory at least the three lines were based upon: young, unproven men as hastati; older men with some military experience as principes; and veteran troops of advanced age and experience as triarii.

There was an additional class of troop (Latin: accensi), (also adscripticii and later supernumerarii), who followed the army without specific martial roles and would be deployed to the rear of the triarii. They were taken both to supply any vacancies that might occur in the maniples but also seem to have acted sometimes as orderlies to the officers.

The light infantry of 1200 velites[11] consisted of unarmoured skirmishing troops drawn from the youngest and lower social classes. They were armed with a sword and buckler (3 foot diameter), as well as several light javelins, each with a 3 foot wooden shaft the diameter of a finger, with a 20-30cm narrow metal point.[12] Their numbers would be swollen by the addition of allied light infantry and irregular rorarii.

A small navy had operated at a fairly low level from the Second Samnite War onwards but it was massively upgraded during this period, expanding from a few primarily river- and coastal-based patrol craft to a full maritime unit of more than 400 ships on the Carthaginian pattern and 100,000 sailors and embarked troops for battle. It thereafter declined in size, partially since a pacified Roman Mediterranean called for little naval force and partially because the Romans chose to rely for some time on ships provided by Greek cities with greater maritime experience.[14]


[edit] Proletariatisation of the infantry (217 BC to 107 BC )
The extraordinary demands of the Punic Wars meant that a certain flexibility of the existing Camillian military arrangements were required due to a shortage of manpower.[15] In 217 BC, Rome was forced to effectively ignore wealth considerations for army service when they pressed slaves into naval service[10] and around 213 BC the official property requirement was reduced from 11,000 to 4,000 asses.[10] Since it seems improbable that the Romans resorted to employing slaves in their armies in favour of poor citizens,[16] it must be assumed that in reality at this point the proletarii of the poorest citizens must have been pressed into service despite their legal lack of qualification for military service. By 123 BC, the financial requirement for military service was slashed again from 4,000 asses to just 1,500 asses.[17] In practice, then, many of the former proletarii had by this time been admitted into the adsidui.[17]

During the second century, Roman territory saw an overall decline in population,[18] partially due to the huge losses incurred during various wars. This was accompanied by severe social stresses and the greater collapse of the middle classes into lower classes of the census and the proletarii.[18] As a result, both the Roman society and its military became increasingly proletarianised. The Roman state was forced to arm its soldiers at the expense of the state, since many of the soldiers who made up its lower classes were now impoverished proletarii in all but name and were too poor to afford their own equipment.[18]

The distinction between the heavy infantry types of hastati, principes and triarii began to blur, perhaps because the state was now assuming the responsibility of providing standard-issue equipment to all but the first class of troops, who were alone able to afford their own equipment.[18] By the time of Polybius therefore the triarii or their successors still represented a distinct heavy infantry type armed with a unique style of cuirass, but the hastati and principes were indistinguishable.[18]

In addition, the shortage of available manpower led to a greater burden being placed upon allies for the provision of allied troops known as socii.[19] Where accepted allies could not provide the required force types, the Romans were not adverse in this period to hiring mercenaries to fight alongside the legions.[20]

Marian reforms.

[edit] Marian legion (107 BC - 49 BC)

Bust of Marius, instigator of the Marian reformsIn a process known as the Marian reforms, Gaius Marius carried out a deliberate reform of the Roman military. In 107 BC Marius opened up eligibility of entry into the Roman army to all citizens, regardless of wealth or social class,[10] formalising and concluding a gradual process of removing property requirements for military service that had been continuing for centuries.[21] The distinction between hastati, principes and triarii which had already become blurred was officially removed[11] and the legionary infantry of popular imagination was created, forming a homogeneous force of heavy infantry. These legionaries were drawn from citizen stock and by this time Roman or Latin citizenship had been regionally expanded over much of ancient Italy and Cisalpine Gaul.[22] Lighter citizen infantry, such as the velites, and equites were replaced by non-citizen auxilia that could consist of foreign mercenaries. In practice, due to their unbalanced concentration on heavy infantry[23] the legions depended on their cavalry attachments and were almost always accompanied through tactical necessity by an approximately equal number of lighter auxiliary troops[24] drawn from the non-citizens of the Empire's territories. However, there is at least one known exception of legions being formed from non-citizen provinces such as Galatia during this period.[22]

After Marius, the legions were drawn largely from volunteer citizens rather than citizens conscripted for duty.[25] Volunteers came forward and were accepted by this point not from citizens of the city of Rome itself but from the surrounding countryside and smaller towns.[26] Some were classed as veterans in that they were long-term professionals, but greater in numbers were civilians with limited experience who would be in active service perhaps only for a few campaigns.[27] The legions of the late republic remained, unlike the legions of the later empire, predominantly Roman in origin, although some small number of ex-auxiliary troops were probably incorporated.[28] The army's higher-level officers and commanders were still drawn exclusively from the aristocracy of Rome.[29]

The legionaries received standard pay by this time and were not fighting simply on a seasonal basis to protect their land, as earlier, but on a salaried and fixed term basis. As a consequence, military duty appealed most to the poorest sections of society[30] and the army consisted of a far higher proportion of the poor, particularly the rural poor, than it had previously. A destabilising consequence of this development was that the proletariat "acquired a stronger and more elevated position"[30] within the state. This professionalisation of the military was made necessary by the need to provide permanent garrisons for territories such as Hispania, something not possible under an army consisting of seasonal citizen militia.

However, R E Smith notes that the need to raise legions in an emergency in response to strategic threats may have resulted in two types of legion.[31] Long-standing legions deployed overseas would be professional troops forming a standing army; quickly-formed new legions would have consisted instead of younger men, perhaps with little or no military experience, hoping for adventure and plunder.[31] However, no distinction in basic pay, discipline or armour is known of between the two types of legion and the practice of veteran troops signing up again voluntarily must have meant that no one army conformed exactly to one or other of these theoretical archetypes.

The legion of the late republic was, structurally, almost entirely heavy infantry. Its main sub-unit was called a cohort and consisted of approximately 480 infantrymen.[32] The cohort was therefore a much larger unit than the earlier, smaller maniple sub-unit. The cohort itself was divided into six tactical sub-units known as centuriae of 80 men[32] distributed among 10 "tent groups" (Latin: contubernia) of 8 men each. Legions additionally consisted of a small body, typically, 120 men, of Roman legionary cavalry (Latin: equites legionis) used as scouts and dispatch riders rather than battlefield cavalry,[33] and a dedicated group of artillery crew of perhaps 60 men.[32]

Each legion was normally partnered by an approximately equal number of non-Roman auxiliae,[34] a formalisation of the earlier arrangement of using light allied troops from the Socii and Latini who had received Roman citizenship after the Social War.[35] Auxiliary troops could be formed from either auxiliary light cavalry known as alae, auxiliary light infantry known as cohors auxiliae, or a flexible mixture of the two known as cohors equitata.[34] Cavalry types included mounted archers (Latin: sagittarii), heavy shock cavalry (Latin: cataphractii or clibanarii), or lancers (Latin: antesignani or lancearii). Infantry could be armed with bows, slings, throwing spears, long swords, or thrusting spears. Auxilia units were originally led by their own chiefs and in this period their internal organization was left to their commanders.[36]

However, "the most obvious deficiency" of the Roman army remained its shortage of cavalry, especially heavy cavalry.[37] The majority of even the auxiliary troops were infantry and Luttwak argues that the "classic trio" of auxiliary forces was Cretan archers, Balearic slingers and Numidian infantry.[38] As Rome's adversaries changed from largely infantry-based to largely cavalry-based troops, the infantry-based Roman army began to find itself at a tactical disadvantage.

After having declined in size following the subjugation of the Mediterranean, the Roman navy underwent short-term upgrading and revitalisation in the late Republic to meet several new demands placed upon it. Under Caesar an invasion fleet was assembled in the English Channel to allow the invasion of Britannia, and under Pompey a large fleet was raised in the Mediterranean sea as a task force to clear the sea of Cilician pirates.[14] During the civil war that followed, as many as a thousand ships were either constructed or pressed into service from Greek cities

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structu...BC_-_510_BC.29. SOURCE!

[Angel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorarii

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accensi

Both links for information on these 2 units.

[Roman_Man#3]

I will let you think what you will, especially when you copy a whole webpage to try to prove that you are right. I am not even going to continue this argument with you, because it would be fruitless. I would not trust Wikipedia (as good as it is) for something of this nature.

oh, and "source" usually means numerous sites that say what you are saying. Not just one site, that can be freely edited by anyone at that.

Right, so in both of those source, it says in the PRE-MARIAN army that they were reserves behind the triarii. You do realize you just totally contradicted yourself?

[rory o'kane]

The Pre-Marian army as depicted in this mod is accurate...minus perhaps, mercenaries and allied units. It's very well documented that after their defeat at the hands of the Gauls in 390BC, they reformed their military to the 'Manipule' configuration....consisting of Hastati, Principe and Triarii.
Whatever other allied troops were present, were not part of this configuration. Allied warriors, by the way, were most of the Cavalry the Romans had, aside from their own 'Equites'.
I'm sure there were many other types of units involved with helping the Romans, as they had many client and allied states, but the Republican military as depicted is accurate.

I like all the ideas here, but let's face it...the Romans use a good 1/3 of the available slots for units. As much as I am a Roman, I don't think it would be 'advantageous' to give them any more.

I am thinking hard on the 'veteranii' idea because I can do this without sacrificing any slots, and a Roman Slinger could be added using an existing Greek slot.

Evocati, though I'm sure were historical, present a recruitment problem...and seem a case of 'diminished returns' too me. Do you make them weaker and recruitable everywhere...then why would I want them in my limited army when I could have a stronger Legion Cohort? Do you make them stronger and resricted by AOR? Then what's to be gained? They won't 'fit' into the Legionary recruitment scheme unless you added hundreds of lines of code to allow it. (I'm serious!!)

Having converted the old useless town watch into a 'Light Infantry' unit, one could say this unit represents a lot of various allied units. (It needs a better set of unit cards, by the way) It is at least the equal of any other faction's universally recruitable unit, and was needed before the reforms.

I think what I'll do for the 'veteranii' is use the 'caesarian' slot unit that exists, and create a lesser unit (strength\defense wise), with smaller numbers, used to guard the estates the Roman's build. A nice tie in, actually, because they disappear after the reforms, and would appear then. as 'retired' Legionaries in the villas....but older and less ably equipped.

for the Veteranii: gladius, chainmail with those weird red things on the shoulder guards(look at the shoulders on these guy's, they've got snake type thing on it: http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?i...rinceps0gz.jpg ), roundish but curved scutum (red, with some generic design on it - like this one: http://www.khukriwala.com/pcat-gifs/...s/shields5.jpg ), no javelins. maybe use them as the governor's/proconsul's bodyguards? slip it into the unit information? and change the skins? i dont know, just a suggestion....

[Roman_Man#3]

I don't think that the oval shields were used, except with the post imperial Comitanses and Limitanieii(sp)

For pre-marian, I would suggest using mainly the scutum with rounded corners. Like the principes in the pic.

[dvk901]

for the Veteranii: gladius, chainmail with those weird red things on the shoulder guards(look at the shoulders on these guy's, they've got snake type thing on it: http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?i...rinceps0gz.jpg ), roundish but curved scutum (red, with some generic design on it - like this one: http://www.khukriwala.com/pcat-gifs/...s/shields5.jpg ), no javelins. maybe use them as the governor's/proconsul's bodyguards? slip it into the unit information? and change the skins? i dont know, just a suggestion....

The unit I have in mind will look a lot like that.

[dvk901]

Ok guys, this is getting us nowhere. There are so many different sources of info on this subject it's just stupid. I tend to trust the sites that have been around a long time, and are SPECIFICALLY dedicated to the subject at hand. Wikipedio, as you say, is OK...but often to be questioned.

These, I think, are good:

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/army.html

http://www.livius.org/catalogue.html

http://www.unrv.com/military.php

The last is probably the best.