DISCUSSION: Minor Factions

[CelticPagan]

This is Ahiga. Because the merge kinda threw the topic into confusion, I'm hijacking your post. And I'll move your valuable research to another of your posts, so there's no confusion that this post is mine. - Ahiga

Major factions: Current list, 15 factions plus Generic Rebels. Each gets a fleshed out roster and fleshed out historical research involving ancillaries and traits, flag and names, and so forth.

Minor Factions: Those that either are emerging (Exclude Timurid and Mongol), or exist at the start of the campaign, but do not warrant a wholly fleshed out design. They may borrow somewhat, heavily, or entirely from another faction's roster, they may be a faction which a major one rebels to (If we can code it), and in general, will warrant less attention than a major. Most minor factions will borrow heavily from another factions list - Antioch from KoJ, or the Ataberg of Mosul from the Abbasid and Seljuks, for example. A shadow faction will borrow entirely from their respective 'main' faction.

Right now, no minor factions are planned for the 1.0 release. It may be that one comes up that gets included for it, but it's likely that if we feature them they will come after 1.0. In terms of priority, those that fill up the bare spots in the east are prioritized over those that are featured in the west.

Minor Faction Possibilities

Remember that right now, excluding generic rebels, we have 15 factions out of 31. Also don't address factions that would fit in if we extend the map as we won't for now [Those would be factions in Russia or the balkans.] For those researchers here, we really could use ideas for minor factions beyond the Tigris and Euphrates, especially in eastern Iran. I've included all that I can think of. Please suggest more if there is any I forgot

Playable

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Kingdom of Cyprus: Already Explained.

• Will use KoJ-like Roster, with some Armenian/Byzantium low level units.

Antioch Principality: Already Explained

• KoJ-like Roster. For gameplay purposes (Not sure if historical), maybe they can have more of an inclination to the Hospitallers while KoJ is to Templar

Ataberg of Mosul: One of the Splinters of the Seljuk Dominion. Impeded Saladin's progress on conquering the KoJ.
http://www.geocities.com/nwgrant/tony/syrians.html

• Mixture of Abbasid, Egyptian (When they are done) and Seljuk, without access to their medium-high quality units. Turcomans, Ghulams, Faris, ect. If we want to give them detail, they could get a few neat city-militia units. I may be able to get some more fleshed out information on them.

Emirate of Aleppo: One of the Splinters of the Seljuk Dominion. Impeded Saladin's progress on conquering the KoJ. [Soon conquered by him in 1183, our starting date is 1175]
http://www.geocities.com/nwgrant/tony/syrians.html

• Same as Mosul.

Afghan Tribe (Pashtun?): Although Ghorid and Ghaznavid are probably East-Iranian/Afghan, this could help fill out the east.

• Afghan units and some Turcopiles.

Would require much more work, almost a mini major faction
Templars: If we decide to feature them as a full on faction and not a guild hall.

• This would require more work to have them look Templar-like. I'm not really for this, although they would help attract attention to the mod

Ethiopia [May not fit on the map]

• http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_101b_figure_1.htm - Mostly Lightly armed and armored troops. Elephants with Javelins, Armenian mercenaries. Possibly some wicked 2 handed troops [They had these in EB, I think there may be context for it]

Sudan

• http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_120_figure_1.htm + http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_101a_figure_1.htm More well armored than Ethiopia. No elephants.

Unplayable

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Kingdom of Cyprus: Already Explained.

• Will use KoJ-like Roster, with some Armenian/Byzantium low level units.

Nizari/Hashshashin: As a conquering kingdom these guys don't work. But they did highly influence the politics of the region. It would be nice to feature a few citadels off in the mountains that they hold. But they only could work if we can make it so they never march their troops out of their buildings, and if they recruit assassins en-masse. But if people allied with them the assassins could/may still attack their generals, so these guys really don't seem viable.
[list]Very small roster of AOR Middle-East and 1-3 fanatical (Possibly close to if not Moral-proof) units.

Ilkhanate: Part of the Mongol Empire that takes up the most of our map. Would occur perhaps after an event signaling the death of Genghis. Any part of the Mongol Empire that exists here would become the Ilkhanate. Assuming we can code that.

• Mongol List, with a touch of influence from Iran and the Turks.

Golden Horde: The part of the Mongol Empire that kind of sits on the fringe of our map. Where the Cumans will be and the Kazakhstan part of Central Asia. Any part that the Mongols take here when Genghis dies would become Golden Horde. Assuming we can code that.

• Mongol List

Delhi Sultanate: The conquests of the Ghorids in India. Indianboy suggested something I forget about how this comes about.

hey guys, i was wondering if it was possible to script this? something like, if the faction Ghorid Sultanate owns the province Delhi from 1206 onwards, an event would occur saying that the Delhi Sultanat has formed and a new faction would be formed? - http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...7&postcount=55

. It may be unfair for the Ghorid player to lose Delhi with that happening. It will probably depend on the origins of the Sultanate. If it was of 'peaceful' circumstances to the Ghorids, then they could emerge as vassals to the Ghorid player/AI. If it was hostile, they can emerge as enemies or neutral. Assuming we can code this.

• Ghorid List, perhaps with some more Indian units.

Afghan Tribe (Pashtun?): Although Ghorid and Ghaznavid are probably East-Iranian/Afghan, this could help fill out the east.

• Afghan units and some Turcopiles.

Empire of Trezibond: Formed in the wake of Byzantium's decline. I forget if it was after the fourth crusade or not. Need to know the origins of it.

• Byzantine List.

Empire of Nicea: Formed in the wake of Byzantium's decline. I forget if it was after the fourth crusade or not. Need to know the origins of it.

• Byzantine List.

Ethiopia [May not fit on the map]

• http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_101b_figure_1.htm - Mostly Lightly armed and armored troops. Elephants with Javelins, Armenian mercenaries. Possibly some wicked 2 handed troops [They had these in EB, I think there may be context for it]

Sudan

• http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_120_figure_1.htm + http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_101a_figure_1.htm More well armored than Ethiopia. No elephants.

Shadow/Rebel Factions: All of them will borrow from their respective factions. Turkish units for the Turkish rebels, ect.
Crusader Rebels
East Christian Rebels
Turkish Rebels (Seljuk and Rum)
Turkish Rebels (Ghorid/Ghaznavid)
Iranian Rebels
Indian Rebels
Mongol Rebels

[Yoda Twin]

I hope this can be a faction. It would be good for the KOJ to have a faction to back them up with troops.

[Ahiga]

They are a decade or two out of the period (We start in 1171 I think), but it might be possible to smudge that date and include them, or have them emerge. Depends on what Alpha + Mirage think.

I suppose it'd be a good addition, though. It could borrow most units from the KoJ, and maybe get a few byzantine inspired ones to represent their greek population. Anything to really bolster the Christians in the mod to help attract attention might help. I would prefer to see Antioch's Principality first, though.

[CelticPagan]

Celtic's research on Cyprus

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Here's some info I have been looking into regarding the Crusader States:

The Kingdom of Cyprus was a Crusader kingdom on the island of Cyprus in the high and late Middle Ages.
The island was conquered from Isaac Comnenus, an upstart local governor and self-proclaimed emperor claiming the Empire of Constantinople, in 1191 by King Richard I of England during the Third Crusade. Richard then sold it to the Knights Templar, who in turn sold it to King-Consort Guy of Jerusalem in 1192 after the failure of Richard's crusade and when Guy was going dispossessed from his late wife's kingdom. His brother and successor, Amalric I of Cyprus, received the royal crown and title from Henry VI, Holy Roman Emperor. A small minority Roman Catholic population of the island was mainly confined to some coastal cities, such as Famagusta, as well as inland Nicosia, the traditional capital. Roman Catholics kept the reins of power and control, while the Greek inhabitants lived in the countryside; this was much the same as the arrangement in the Kingdom of Jerusalem. The independent Eastern OrthodoxChurch of Cyprus, with its own archbishop and subject to no patriarch, was allowed to remain on the island, but the Latin Church largely displaced it in stature and holding property.
After the death of Amalric of Lusignan, the Kingdom continually passed to a series of young boys who grew up as king. The Ibelin family, which had held much power in Jerusalem prior its downfall, acted as regents during these early years. In 1229 one of the Ibelin regents was forced out of power by Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor, who brought the struggle between the Guelphs and Ghibellines to the island. Frederick's supporters were defeated in this struggle by 1233, although it lasted longer in Palestine and in Europe. Frederick's Hohenstaufen descendants continued to rule as kings of Jerusalem until 1268 when Hugh III of Cyprus claimed the title and its territory of Acre for himself upon the death of Conrad III of Jerusalem, thus uniting the two kingdoms. The territory in Palestine was finally lost while Henry II was king in 1291, but the kings of Cyprus continued to claim the title.
Like Jerusalem, Cyprus had a Haute Cour (High Court), although it was less powerful than it had been in Jerusalem. The island was richer and more feudal than Jerusalem, so the king had more personal wealth and could afford to ignore the Haute Cour. The most important vassal family was the multi-branch House of Ibelin. However, the king was often in conflict with the Italian merchants, especially because Cyprus had become the centre of European trade with Africa and Asia after the fall of Acre in 1291.
The kingdom eventually came to be dominated more and more in the 14th century by the Genoese merchants. Cyprus therefore sided with the Avignon Papacy in the Great Schism, in the hope that the French would be able to drive out the Italians. The Mameluks then made the kingdom a tributary state in 1426; the remaining monarchs gradually lost almost all independence, until 1489 when the last Queen, Catherine Cornaro, was forced to sell the island to Venice.

List of Kings of Cyprus

• Guy of Lusignan (1192-1194)
• Amalric of Lusignan (1194-1205) (Amaury)
• Hugh I (1205-1218)
• Henry I (1218-1253) (Le Gros)
• Hugh II (1253-1267) (Huguet)
• Hugh III (1267-1284)
• John I (1284-1285)
• Henry II (1285-1306)
• Amalric of Tyre (1306-1310), Regent and usurper
• Henry II (1310-1324) again
• Hugh IV (1324-1359)
• Peter I (1359-1369)
• Peter II (1369-1382) (Perrin)
• James I (1382-1398)
• Janus (1398-1432)
• John II (1432-1458)
• Charlotte (1458-1464) and 1459-1464 with her husband Louis of Savoy
• James II (1464-1473) (Jacques le Bâtard)
• James III (1473-1474)
• Catherine Cornaro (1474-1489)

Pretenders of the Kingdom of Cyprus

• Eugene Matteo de Armenia (148?-1523), said by his own progeny to have been an illegitimate son of King James II of Cyprus and if born in the 1480s he was quite a posthumous specimen, alleged to have moved to Sicily then Malta, founder of the family of Baron di Baccari (Tal-Baqqar).
• Charlotte (d 1487) and Louis (d 1482), queen and king-consort, continued as pretenders, Charlotte renounced 1482 (in favor of
• Charles I of Savoy (1482-90), legitimate great-grandson of Janus of Cyprus, son of a first cousin of Charlotte, second cousin of James III, nephew of Louis
• Charles II of Savoy (1490-96)
• Yolande Louise of Savoy (1496-99) and Philibert II of Savoy (d 1504)
  • Philip II of Savoy (1496-97), father of Philibert II, great-uncle of Charles II and of Yolande Louise, first cousin of Charlotte, grandson of Janus of Cyprus.
• and several others. The rights diverted de jure, but were claimed by the male line. See further under Kings of Jerusalem#Cypriot claimants. By 1476, the various claims were so diverse and weak that various monarchs sought former Cypriot queens to cede them their rights. Even the Republic of Venice briefly entertained the idea of setting up Anthony Woodville, the brother-in-law of England's King Edward IV (who was secretly negotiating a marriage to the Scottish princess Cecilia on Anthony's behalf), as a claimant by purchasing the rights of former Cypriot queens Charlotte and Catarina Cornaro. A convention in Venice of 1476 declared "Anthony Arnite" heir to the combined kingdom of Jerusalem-Cyprus but this came to nought when Anthony died before even his marriage to the sister of James Stewart, King of Scots could be celebrated, and the former Cypriot queens ceded their rights elsewhere. Charlotte to the Italian house of Savoy and Catarina Cornaro to the Republic of Venice which asserted its claim to the kingdom as a republic, without even a candidate for king.

Coat of Arms for the Kingdom of Cyprus

Loss of Jerusalem to Salah al-Din, 1187
Third Crusade Emperor Frederick I (Barbarossa), Kings Philip Augustus II of France and Richard Coeur De Lion of England 1189-1192
De Lusignan Dynasty
Guy of Lusignan 1192-1194
Aimery of Lusignan 1194-1205
Hugh I 1205-1218
Fourth Crusade against Constantinople 1202-1204
Henry I of Cyprus 1218-1253

Fifth Crusade. Frederick II peacefully regained Jerusalem from the Ayyubids 1228 - 1229. Lost again in 1244

Hugh II of Cyprus 1253-1267
Sixth Crusade against Egypt by Louis IX of France (Saint Louis) 1248-1254
Chatillon Dynasty - Antioch
Hugh III of Cyprus (I of Jerusalem) 1267-1284
Henry II of Cyprus 1285-1306
Mamluks conquer Antioch in 1268, Tripoli in 1289, and Acre in 1291. End of Outremer 1291

Amalric of Tyre (II of Cyprus) 1306-1310
Henry II of Cyprus (restored) 1310-1324
Hugh IV (II of Jerusalem) 1324-1359
Peter I 1359-1369
Peter II 1369-1382
James I 1382-1398
Janus 1398-1432
John II 1432-1458
Queen Charlotte 1458-1464
James II 1464-1473
James III 1473-1474

I have also ordered the following book to aid in my research (should have it by tomorrow):

They are a decade or two out of the period (We start in 1171 I think), but it might be possible to smudge that date and include them, or have them emerge. Depends on what Alpha + Mirage think.

I suppose it'd be a good addition, though. It could borrow most units from the KoJ, and maybe get a few byzantine inspired ones to represent their greek population. Anything to really bolster the Christians in the mod to help attract attention might help. I would prefer to see Antioch's Principality first, though.

Guess I'll be off to the library then. Amazon is selling The Creation of the Principality of Antioch, 1098-1130 for$136, and I ain't made of money

[Ahiga]

That's alright Celtic. You can try to find stuff online first, and if nothing shows up there, then check it out at the library.

And make sure that Mirage and Alpha are interested in pursuing the principalty first off

[Miraj]

Not sure about this. I wanted cyprus to be split in two. One Byz controlled. One rebel. I was planning on scripting an "invasion" whereby Richard the Lionheart spawns on Cyprus and takes it over.

Also, this and the Antioch faction is on the table but will be in future versions as a 'mini' non-playable factions. Other mini factions would be the Emirate of Aleppo, Mosul. Other principalities in Persia and India also.

[Ahiga]

Are you sure you'd want them to be non playable? I understand that it's become somewhat of a interesting proposition put forth by the MTR team, but I kinda feel like they are choosing it only because they have too many factions. We are more of the position that we have too 'few'.

Right now there's only 16 factions + 1 rebel. That leaves us about 13 more spots.

We could:

Add in a bunch of specific rebel factions (One for Byzantium, one for Turks, one for India, one for Persia, one of native oriental christians), only adding 5 faction spots.

Those that emerge would naturally be unplayable, but personally, if the faction exists at the start, we might as well make them playable. They can borrow entirely from a common list and just be unique in emblem and flag. Perhaps in the future they can get some specialized units, but since we are so far from reaching a faction limit, I'm of the view that we should give the players as much toys to play with as we want to.

[AlphaDelta]

The problem is that the AI just wont do anything as Cyprus. They'll not move off the island.

Personally I think we have enough Christian/Othordox factions (4). Before we add any more christian factions we'll probably add several more muslim factions.

Cheers

[kobi118]

I think this faction is good idea, u can make like 3 provinces in cyprus, one castle, 2 cities, and give it to them...

[Miraj]

I agree with AD that if we are going to add a new faction it has to be one over in the east. There is simply a empty feeling there.

The problem with adding cyprus or even antioch is that there is already plenty of action in the mediteranean coast. The Byz, Armenians, Turks, Egypt and KoJ are already an interesting political situation. I think adding any more would make a good complication into a bad complications.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

I would rather see Antioch than Cyprus, honestly.

[Hansa]

Rather Antioch than Cyprus, much much rather.

The Kingdom of Cyprus emerged due to very specific events. There would be no kingdom without the actions of Richard I on the third Crusade. Having it there in 1171 as anything but a Greek land would be very ahistorical. The Principality of Antioch on the other hand...

Keep on modding folks, just saw the new skins in the Seljuk thread and honestly, if whoever skinned the turks from CA visits that thread, he should be ashamed of himself, holy....they looked good.

Only worry here is that some factions will have far more realistic looking units than others.

[Ahiga]

Rather Antioch than Cyprus, much much rather.

The Kingdom of Cyprus emerged due to very specific events. There would be no kingdom without the actions of Richard I on the third Crusade. Having it there in 1171 as anything but a Greek land would be very ahistorical. The Principality of Antioch on the other hand...

Keep on modding folks, just saw the new skins in the Seljuk thread and honestly, if whoever skinned the turks from CA visits that thread, he should be ashamed of himself, holy....they looked good.

Only worry here is that some factions will have far more realistic looking units than others.

Well in what way? I'm curious to know so we can try and remedy it if we could have one faction look more realistic than others. Although we care about realism, we aren't as big on it as MA or MTR, so there's some creative room. For example, the Rajputs had little to no concept art, so Alpha and Indian worked from a lot of imagination and creativity and gave them a lot of justice. :Original:

The three that will probably suffer a bit of a momentary lapse will be egypt, the Rum (ottoman) turks, and Byzantium. Less the latter, because we have WW's skins, but they will probably get their own work in the future, perhaps after the 1.0 release.

[IrAr]

In my opinion, there are much better possible choices than Cyprus, but also that new factions should not be touched until the current ones are finished, then, after the game is tested, everyone can suggest factions to enhance gameplay.

[Drtad]

While I don't agree with Cyprus, I don't agree with Antioch as well. They fell to the Armenians in the early 13th century.

[Ahiga]

While I don't agree with Cyprus, I don't agree with Antioch as well. They fell to the Armenians in the early 13th century.

Well, I believe the Ghaznavid's fall as a kingdom pretty soon after our starting date (possibly even before it). More or less the additions of the smaller groups, like city-states (Aleppo and Damascus, though at this time they may be owned by Saladin, so basically those that are like those two that are free) will be to fill up the map and make it interesting.

But before Antioch or Cyprus would be considered for inclusion, we'll probably work to fill up the east with such minor (Though I suggest playable, unless emerging) factions.

[Miraj]

I frankly don't think Cyprus adds anything to gameplay. I'd rather see Cyprus be a battle ground between the KoJ, Egypt, Armenia, Byz and perhaps Turks. Adding a new faction will basically leave us with a faction that does nothing.

[JERUSALEM]

from 1191 to 1192 cyprus was under the rule of Templar knights.

general history u can see in sir George Hill's history of cyprus .

yes

and i think cyprus must not be as a fraction but a basis land for the crusade or jihad against

Mediterranean states .

respect

[IrAr]

I agree. Cyprus would practically be a clone of KOJ with some units replaced by low-level Armenian and Greek units. That does not sound like it adds anything.

[Ahiga]

I agree. Cyprus would practically be a clone of KOJ with some units replaced by low-level Armenian and Greek units. That does not sound like it adds anything.

Well, any new Christian factions except for the Abyssinians (Ethiopians), unless we extend towards the Balkans (Which might be feasible in a far off update.) would probably be adding very little in the form of a unit roster. If we add the Antioch Principality, for example, it'd be very much like the KoJ.

However we shouldn't be focused on exclusively the unit roster. There's also the politics to be considered. We have something most mods don't - too little, not too many factions, and in some ways more meat, even if it's lean meat, is better than less.

However Cyprus can be worked on in a future update. For now it's not necessary.