The Irish Paradox-Celtism vs Anglosaxonism yesterday and today

[Mr President]

The Irish People are very proud and boast of their celtic origin
and identity.But-correct me if i'm wrong- they use all time -especially the young people and the majority of population- as common,every day,written,in publications and official language the english,the language of their worst historic enemy..And unlike Americans,Canadians,Australians and others, the Irish have not ancestral bonds with Old Albion at all .It's a pity because the ancient celtic language is wonderful..

[removeduser_487563287433]

Actually researchers have discovered that genetically the population of the British Isles has changed little since the last ice age - British and Irish share the same ancestral bonds with 'Old Albion', whatever that's supposed to be.

And gaelic is an awful language, horrible to hear. Like a duck choking to death.

[wilting]

Genetics, culture and language are not necessarily related.

We speak English for a number of reasons;

Historically:

1) Persecution for speaking Irish
2) Requirement to able to speak English to work in Civil Service, Government and suceed in Commerce etc

Presently:
1) 'Habit' derived from above reasons
2) International nature of the language, including commerce

What is this 'Gaelic'? Nobody in Ireland uses this word to describe the language, in English it's called Irish!

[Cúchulainn]

And gaelic is an awful language, horrible to hear. Like a duck choking to death.

And of course English is much better, you have Scousers

Now listen, I speak Gaelige and it is a far more poetic and concise language than English, which is itself a bastardization of French and German.

And there are 6 'Gaelic' regions and 6 languages, so don't refer to them as one language and culture

[removeduser_487563287433]

Um... language and culture is entirely unrelated to genetics. But we were talking about ancestry.

[wilting]

Well obviously there is no direct relationship.

But there can be a coincidental relationship in terms of a group/society can share common genetic traits as well as having common cultural and lingustic ones.

Ancestry is pretty much the same thing, you know what I'm getting at.

[wilpuri]

Um... language and culture is entirely unrelated to genetics. But we were talking about ancestry.

Of course it is. It's entirely coincidential that Finns speak Finnish and have developed a distinctly Finnish culture and social tradition.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Of course it is. It's entirely coincidential that Finns speak Finnish and have developed a distinctly Finnish culture and social tradition.

Well. Coincidental isn't the word I would use... it's down to enviroment significantly, but let's not pick and straws.

[wilpuri]

Well. Coincidental isn't the word I would use... it's down to enviroment significantly, but let's not pick and straws.

So may be they are related after all, then.

[removeduser_487563287433]

No..... you take an Irish baby and raise him in Norway and he'll grow up culturally Norwegian. Genetically he will have Irish traits. Red hair maybe. Liver cirrhosis.

And of course English is much better, you have Scousers

Now listen, I speak Gaelige and it is a far more poetic and concise language than English, which is itself a bastardization of French and German.

And there are 6 'Gaelic' regions and 6 languages, so don't refer to them as one language and culture

Well I do it out of ignorance, I have no idea about it, why should I? Could use you in the political mudpit's European thread. Americans in there saying that there's no difference between France and Britain, let alone Britain and Ireland. You want him to get away with that?

Edited to combine double posts. ~ Lord Gruffles

[wilting]

Er yes, that's exactly what my original point was.

The alternative being that he grows up in Ireland and coincidentally has both 'Irish' genetic and cultural traits.

EDIT: By virtue of being part of a group that shares many traits.

[Erich von Manstein]

Genetic traits? Let's go to the Athenaeum. Moved.

[Tabell]

Well, actually Ive seen studies that say 50% of the population of the british isles is descended from germanic peoples. I view Ireland as another part of britain, which does not demean it in any way at all before you leap at me.

[Slaxx Hatmen]

Well, actually Ive seen studies that say 50% of the population of the british isles is descended from germanic peoples. I view Ireland as another part of britain, which does not demean it in any way at all before you leap at me.

Actually didn't they do a similar study on Ireland alone and found that the majority of the population(not counting Immigrants from the UK)were descended from some obscure race from Iberia/Spain. The very same race/bloodline/whatever as the people of Basque.

Also, it's interesting that some people from Ireland call their language Gaelige, whilst most just call it "Irish". Stupid Saxons.....wish William had wiped them out and replaced the rural people with French.

[Antagonist]

I must say that I've been fairly mystified by the number of genetic studies which I have heard alluded to concerning the issue of the ethnic make-up of the peoples of Britain and Ireland. I've heard tell of about 5 different studies, some of which seem to present wholly contradictory conclusions about the genetic "impact" of the Celts, Romans, Saxons, Vikings, Normans etc. I'm no geneticist, but I can't help wondering if there might be issues with the methodology being employed, or (perhaps more likely) if fairly complex and difficult to interpret results are not being massively simplified for media reporting.

That said, I would be very surprised if a significant number of Irish people were of demonstratably Germanic genetic origin (there is certainly no evidence for any Anglo-Saxon (in the pre-1066 sense) presence in Ireland, ironically given their later history Anglo-Saxon England and Gaelic Ireland seem to have got along quite well)

Antagonist

EDIT: FWIW in terms of Ireland specifically, I think the Iberian hypothesis if favoured because it appears to agree with mythological sources, which clearly state that the Gaelic race originally came to Ireland from Northern Iberia. Of course, that interpretation depends on how much credit you give to the idea that the Lebor Gabála Érenn is a mythologising of, or is at least influenced by, real historic events.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Well... no. I see what you're getting at.. but no.

[wilpuri]

Well... no. I see what you're getting at.. but no.

Genetics is perhaps a bad term, but ancestry and culture are definately related. Language is the vernacular of a culture, its linguistic expression.

Just because its possible for an African to grow up in a European society and more or less conform to the culture of that society doesn't mean that culture and ancestry (or genetics) aren't related. Its quite ridiculous to even make such a claim. Languages and cultures did not materialize out of thin air and get assigned to random populations, they are the products of thousands of years of development in which the three mentioned variables all play a role.

[removeduser_487563287433]

But then again vast populations of people today, ranging from Indians, to Americans to French all get their languages from a single proto-Indo European mother tongue... so really yes, culture and genetics are seperate entirely.

[Tabell]

Perhaps the original britons and irish came from iberia, but I dont think the modern ones can. They look nothing alike to each other. Although I do confess I like the idea of a 10,000 year homeland.

[catintheoven]

Perhaps the original britons and irish came from iberia, but I dont think the modern ones can. They look nothing alike to each other. Although I do confess I like the idea of a 10,000 year homeland.

they did actualy, when the ice sheets covered nothern europe no one could live there, but when they began to recede the surviving humans in Iberia spread back out across europe, across the then dry channel into the british isles and when the channel filled with water were isolated and the basques of northern spain also claim to have never moved since the neolithic times,

I think Gaelic sounds better than English. I don't like how English sounds, but Gaelic sounds more like Spanish than anything else (to me).

It is a shame that Gaelic is being ousted by English.

my dad says welsh is alot like french, seems to me like a celtic roman conspiracy