My beef with religion

[tnick777]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070420/.../vatican_limbo

After reading this... It dawned on me... who conducts/revises/creates religion? People? We take God and we twist him, we twist and turn him into something that we manipulate.

It's like creating rules in a game that you're losing, just so you can win. The old priests in the medieval times did it all the time. They told that salvation was through charity to the church (giving them money) and attending services. Where does the money go? To the Priests. In those days Priests were the ones who read the bible to people becuase they weren't educated in reading. So therefore they can slip in 'hey if you give me 3 grams of gold, I'll ensure your place in heaven'

The greatest mistake ever done was puting religion into humans hands. We took the clay that is religion, and manipulated it into a political and controversial scupture that fits OUR needs.

Atheists got keen to this and decided that if there was a God, he wouldn't let a religion launch 'holy wars' to gain 'holy lands', which was meer politics!! I am upset and extremely sad that the Catholic Church and humans as a whole, have ruined religion for the world.

Going back to the article... Why does the Pope have more holiness than me? Didn't God create all men equally? Why should I have to bow down to a man with skin and flesh just like me? When did religion turn into a heirachy that puts HIM in power leaving me to ignorantly eat every peice of crap he sends my way!? Did the Pope have a talk with God? How did it go... 'Hey God... you know about all those babies that die before they're baptized... what happens to them... do they just kinda sit there.. do you recycle them what goes on?' 'They Go To Heaven My Child' 'Ahh okay... Mind if I sanction that?' 'Go Ahead My Son'.

In my eyes... The Catholic church is just a powerful countries, with the same objectives as all countries. Gain influence and gain MONEY.

Which is why I am happy to be a Lutheran/Christian Orthodox. I take things with a grain of salt, determining what I feel I should beleive and what I should not beleive.


Now I stand here with two motifs to live
-God is there, was there, and always will be there
-Everything has a cause, war, love, famine, suffering and happiness, all have a reason


God bless you with the power to fight ignorance
Tyler

[AngryTitusPullo]

Hmmm.. Your beef is about Catholism.. Catholism is not the only religion...

Anyway, according to my belief, God didn't give men religion, but guidance for ways of life (Ad-Deen). Men turns it into religion....

[enoch]

God is there, was there, and always will be there

Absolutely true - as is the continuing logic of the thought - If god has been around forever - before earth or even the universe - than it follows that to him humans are no different than grass or stardust or whatever occupies space between universes -

we are not only not even on his radar, but if we were, it is unlikely that humans would be of any interest whatsoever to him

TO SUMMARIZE - God is without doubt both real and completely indifferent to humanity

[removeduser_426582376423734]

You've got beef with religion, and I've got a religion with no beef!

Noun, wetness on your Hin

[Kythras]

You've got beef with religion, and I've got a religion with no beef!

Noun, wetness on your Hin

Oh very good! +rep for you!


And it's good to see you've seen the proverbial light Tyler...

[Dunecat]

On behalf of religion, I apologize.

[tnick777]

Oh very good! +rep for you!


And it's good to see you've seen the proverbial light Tyler...

Then where's my rep


Basically I'm sick of people telling me who to worship.

[Zenith Darksea]

Well, you don't have to listen to anyone. Unless you're living in an intellectually repressive country, you do have a choice of your own.

I can see that you have many problems with the status of the Pope. Well, that's good - you should. However, that doesn't invalidate religion as a whole. Certainly we in the Orthodox Church believe that we're following God, not man, though you'll have to make your own mind up about that.

[Turbo]

Tnink77,

Maybe you should look deeper into your own faith my friend before you attack and insult the Catholic faith aka the Pope.

Lutherans believe in predestination - that God has hand selected those to be saved and those not to be saved. In the article you have read, your Lutheran faith believes that prior to being born, these infants were already predestined to go to heaven or hell. In my eyes this teaching alone underminds the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, the freewill acceptance of the Holy Spirit, and is heretical and inconsistent with Christian theology and writings.

The Pope has the authority of the Apostles as passed on through Apostolic succession. The Catholic and Orthodox churches are legitimate Churches of Christ that trace their history and roots back to Christ and his apostles. That to me offers more validity than a startup faith that goes back to Martin Luther.

[enoch]

Tnink77,

Maybe you should look deeper into your own faith my friend before you attack and insult the Catholic faith aka the Pope.

Lutherans believe in predestination - that God has hand selected those to be saved and those not to be saved. In the article you have read, your Lutheran faith believes that prior to being born, these infants were already predestined to go to heaven or hell. In my eyes this teaching alone underminds the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, the freewill acceptance of the Holy Spirit, and is heretical and inconsistent with Christian theology and writings.

The Pope has the authority of the Apostles as passed on through Apostolic succession. The Catholic and Orthodox churches are legitimate Churches of Christ that trace their history and roots back to Christ and his apostles. That to me offers more validity than a startup faith that goes back to Martin Luther.

Neither the orthodox or the catholic church can trace their history to the apostles - they can trace their history to some early christian movements and I most assuredly am not of the argument that they are entirely product's of Rome's elite, but to think that either church comes from the apostles or even from the Christian movements that the apostles established is blatantly historically inaccurate

[tnick777]

Maybe we should redo our research on Lutheranism... You're talking about calvanistic presbyterians.

Why is the Pope 'His Holiness'

[Turbo]

Maybe we should redo our research on Lutheranism... You're talking about calvanistic presbyterians.

Why is the Pope 'His Holiness'

No, you are slightly different than Calvanists but your faith embraces the concept nontheless. I think you need to relook at your own faith.

http://www.answers.com/topic/lutheranism

Here is a synod from the Lutheran Church that clearly explains the Lutheran position on predestination:
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2650

Perhaps you are familiar with the Lutheran Election of Faith?

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=576

Do you really believe through accident of birth that you are 'predestined' or 'elected to grace' and others are not? We Catholics believe in the free will acceptance of the Holy Ghost to anyone who will accept Christ as the savior. Somehow To me, Christ's sacrifice seems inmaterial considering that God went ahead and picked who was saved anyway.

Enoch,

Below are just a few examples of how The Catholic church traces its history back to the Apostles:

1) The sign of the fish is an early sign of the Christian church that symbolizes 'the fisherman'. The new testament tells us that Christ built his church on the faith of Peter.
2) The symbol of the Papacy which traces back 200 years and early during the Apostles time is the symbol of the upside down cross - which the earliest Christian writings point to Peter's crucifixition upside down. This symbol and the fish are found on the earliest of Christian tombs.
3) The Church has an unbroken chain of apostolic succession that traces itself back to the Apostle Peter.
4) The New Testament refers to organized churches throughout the Roman Empire. The Apostle Paul kept in contact through writings offering guidance and direction. Clergy are referred to.
5) Revelation is a telling of the Triumph of the Catholic Church over the beast that was the Roman Empire.

[enoch]

I think you need to relook at your own faith.

http://www.answers.com/topic/lutheranism

Here is a synod from the Lutheran Church that clearly explains the Lutheran position on predestination:
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2650

Perhaps you are familiar with the Lutheran Election of Faith?

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=576

If you want to better understand why the Pope is called his holiness, then you should research apostolic succession and read the early church writings. If I thought you were serious instead of being merely facetious, I would spend the time explaining this to you.

Apostolic succession was proven false nearly twenty years ago - even the dissenting voices in the respected academic world have long been quiet on this point - you are right about the Lutheran church although the reality is they no longer practice the belief of predestination in the wider church just like the Catholics no longer practice the Latin mass for the most part.

[Turbo]

Apostolic succession was proven false nearly twenty years ago - even the dissenting voices in the respected academic world have long been quiet on this point - you are right about the Lutheran church although the reality is they no longer practice the belief of predestination in the wider church just like the Catholics no longer practice the Latin mass for the most part.

I suppose you can share with me how the apostalic succession was proven false? What happened nearly 20 years ago that was so earth shattering that it debunked a theological fact that the Holy Church has held for thousands of years? I can't exactly discuss this with you if don't explain or backup your statements with some facts. I assume that you can provide credible theologians that will agree with your statments?

As an interesting fact, I just learned that many Lutheran Churches also profess belief in apostolic succession.

[enoch]

I suppose you can share with me how the apostalic succession was proven false? What happened nearly 20 years ago that was so earth shattering that it debunked a theological fact that the Holy Church has held for thousands of years? I can't exactly discuss this with you if don't explain or backup your statements with some facts. I assume that you can provide credible theologians that will agree with your statments?

As an interesting fact, I just learned that many Lutheran Churches also profess belief in apostolic succession.

EDIT - Also, why no mention of the biology I discussed which is really the crux of my argument - in the end who cares if apostolic succession is historically *LAugh -giggle giggle* accurate when it has been shown that predisposition to religion is biological - why not debate the facts that make your points seem silly, rather than debating a trivial, silly point

I am going to do this, but I must say I find it insulting - it is like asking me to prove that that the sun exists - I know it does, I can't prove it but I know scientists who can-


FIRST name one, credible, non denominational scholar (which you properly call theologian) that does believe in Apostolic succession?

Yes, of course, many churches believe in apostolic succession - church history is not history.

So, the Americans won the revolutionary war

Then at one point a man named hitler tried to take over europe

Soon after, researchers decided to make public many finds -

Before we get into the actual new testament, lets be simple, the papal seat was bought and sold for the majority of its history - at one point an approx. 12 year old boy was pope - Alex Borgia, father of Caesar Borgia, upon becoming pope sent a letter to his cousin that was later quoted in modern terms "Now that we have this idiotic chair, lets have some fun". One of the more corrupt popes of the middle ages was famous in Rome b/c his son was known for kidnapping and gang raping nuns with his friends.
John Paul II himself, a great conservative pope, once told a group that, paraphrased "of course if we follow the laws of man, apostolic succession is proved false, it is when we kneel to the will of God, that all becomes clear".

I could go on forever with stories of corruption run rampant on the chair of Peter, who by the way was likely never actually in Rome in his entire life.


Lets get to the new testament - Mark, although not first in the new testament, is the closest gospel to the time of Jesu- being written roughly sixty years after Jesu's death - Mark was later superceded by John, (written approx. 100 years after Jesu's death) because Mark's gospel in the oldest surviving text makes mention of Magdelane and also fails to acknowledge that Jesu was the son of God.

Of course, the gospels written within a few years of Jesu's death - Thomas, James, Magdelane and the newly discovered Judas - not only state that Peter was not Jesu's successor, but also make it clear that the last sacrilege Jesu would ever commit would be to claim godhead.

It would be like Ralph Nader proclaiming that Big Business was always right,

and I could keep going but is there really a point, the beauty of FAITH is that it exists in the face of reason, that in its very essence it says this falsehood is true, man just can not yet see such divine truth.

Take the time to get up to date- ie Theological thought as of 2007 and then I would be glad to debate anything you want

But I am not going to get pulled into the argument that you know the world is flat b/c your church said so, and I know the world is round because I have seen it from space-

I studied catechism for 6 months in preparation for the seminary when I was 18, my uncle graduated Summa Cum Laude from Harvard Divinity and my best friend in college was a Catechism scholar at Vanderbilt Divinity,
Apostolic succession is not real - the Garden of Eden is not real - the world was not made in seven days - jesu did not bring people back to life, in fact, being a gallilean from roughly 30 AD, jesu would not have brought someone back to life if he could, and he most assuredly hated churches - in fact - the ONE AND ONLY THING EVERY SINGLE GOSPEL AGREES ON IS THAT JESUS WAS VIOLENTLY OPPOSED TO FINDING GOD IN ANY TEMPLE SETTING - HIS ACTUAL ATTRIBUTED WORDS SAY THIS

[misfitsfiend138]

It's like creating rules in a game that you're losing, just so you can win. The old priests in the medieval times did it all the time. They told that salvation was through charity to the church (giving them money) and attending services. Where does the money go? To the Priests. In those days Priests were the ones who read the bible to people becuase they weren't educated in reading. So therefore they can slip in 'hey if you give me 3 grams of gold, I'll ensure your place in heaven'

The greatest mistake ever done was puting religion into humans hands. We took the clay that is religion, and manipulated it into a political and controversial scupture that fits OUR needs.

well said, all religions are the same if you look at it. they have a version of the 10 commandments, a great flood too. if u read the book RULE BY SECRECY it tells you the true history of some religions, especially christianity.

i myself am not a christian, i dont think there was anything "divine" with jesus one bit. the catholic church screwed it up. some people see him as god but hes just a prophet. i believe that the church is the most corrupt organization on earth though there might be some good people within it. the church was used as a means to control the masses back then and they done so much stuff to make sure they kept their power. they have doen so much bs.
1) the new testament (how come only 5 apostles are in the bible?)
2) the banning of the gnostic texts ( read the scrolls of judas if you havent! it stated that judas was the favorite of jesus and theres more to god, heaven, and the divine spark within man)
3) attack on the templars and freemasons

[Da Skinna]

This is really funny... I've spent the whole morning writing about God, religion and wtf it's all about...

[Tecumseh]

Turbo,

About predestination, and your rejection of this idea, I will say that if God exists, and is all-knowing, then it is fact that predestination exists. If our destiny is already known, by God or anything else, then we do not have free-will. We are the result of a series of causes that originated with God, and God knew what every outcome of each cause would be.

However, I think that God is not an intervening being. Why would he need to intervene in his already perfect creation? And I think that in the absence of an interventionist God, the illusion of free-will, which we have, is as good as the real thing. So, you can have predestination and still believe that we are free to choose our paths at the same time.

[Thanatos]

Turbo,

About predestination, and your rejection of this idea, I will say that if God exists, and is all-knowing, then it is fact that predestination exists. If our destiny is already known, by God or anything else, then we do not have free-will. We are the result of a series of causes that originated with God, and God knew what every outcome of each cause would be.

However, I think that God is not an intervening being. Why would he need to intervene in his already perfect creation? And I think that in the absence of an interventionist God, the illusion of free-will, which we have, is as good as the real thing. So, you can have predestination and still believe that we are free to choose our paths at the same time.

God sees all paths, but those are not set in stone. A person can yet change. If there was no free will, then nothing would matter, and good and evil cannot exist, because we could have been fated either way.

[tnick777]

@Misfitfeind
I have read the gnostic gospels and I look at it as the raw religion.

I want Christianity to be untainted.