This Is Blasphemy This Is Maddness

[HeronOfSparta]

THIS... WAS .... SPARTAAaaaa
in the movie 300 leonidas referred to thesbians as boy lovers and poets. the discovery channels ancient warriors shows that the men of the spartan army were lovers as well as brothers. even if a guy had a woman at home , he may lay with her a few hours but break his neck to spend the rest of his night with his partner and the rest of the boyz. this was said to be their way until the age of 30, training complete, they then go home. but hey, their still the toughest group of MisterSisters i've ever seen......besides the romans and alexander the great was said to be a booty buster also.

[Giorgos]

Are you a homophobe Heron?

[HeronOfSparta]

not at all, i just didnt know that.

[HeronOfSparta]

300 the movie made the spartans seem as if they were above that sort of stuff. that was my original point. personally i dont discriminate against anyone.

[Giorgos]

What you now think you know, is by far and large, false. There is zero indication that homosexuality back then, was viewed by people in anyway different as it's viewed today.
The only historians who insist that the ancient Greeks, ancient Romans and God knows who else, were practicing homosexuality as something normal because in pre-christian times homosexuality wasn't considered bad/evil/deviation from the norm, blah and blah to infinity, are the ones who are avid practicioners of said sexual taste and would very much like their favourite historical subjects sexual preferences to mirror their own.
Certainly in writing there are parts the deal in homosexuality(of course there were people with homosexual tendencies/preferences back then, just like today), but to be convinced that it was a far reaching and all encompassing thing practiced by all is utterly laughable.

[HeronOfSparta]

What you now think you know, is by far and large, false. There is zero indication that homosexuality back then, was viewed by people in anyway different as it's viewed today.
The only historians who insist that the ancient Greeks, ancient Romans and God knows who else, were practicing homosexuality as something normal because in pre-christian times homosexuality wasn't considered bad/evil/deviation from the norm, blah and blah to infinity, are the ones who are avid practicioners of said sexual taste and would very much like their favourite historical subjects sexual preferences to mirror their own.
Certainly in writing there are parts the deal in homosexuality(of course there were people with homosexual tendencies/preferences back then, just like today), but to be convinced that it was a far reaching and all encompassing thing practiced by all is utterly laughable.

thanks 4 your insight. blasted discovery channel

By the way, Leonidas in the film, did not describe thesbeians as boy lovers, but atheneians if i remember correctly.

It's not about discrimination Heron, it's about reality.

well, in reality im not a homophobe

[mrjesushat]

What you now think you know, is by far and large, false. There is zero indication that homosexuality back then, was viewed by people in anyway different as it's viewed today.
The only historians who insist that the ancient Greeks, ancient Romans and God knows who else, were practicing homosexuality as something normal because in pre-christian times homosexuality wasn't considered bad/evil/deviation from the norm, blah and blah to infinity, are the ones who are avid practicioners of said sexual taste and would very much like their favourite historical subjects sexual preferences to mirror their own.
Certainly in writing there are parts the deal in homosexuality(of course there were people with homosexual tendencies/preferences back then, just like today), but to be convinced that it was a far reaching and all encompassing thing practiced by all is utterly laughable.

I'm sorry, but this is wrong, Giorgios. There's ample historical evidence, up to and including art and the writings of Classical Age historians that backs up the notion that homosexuality (more correctly, bisexuality) was widespread, as a behavior. Note I say, "behavior". The notion that it was institutionalized or widely encouraged is incorrect, and in that respect, I agree with you. While the elites of Athens, for instance, practised homosexuality, to do so to the exclusion of heterosexuality was considered weird. Immoral would not be the right term, however. That particular distinction shows up after the widespread acceptance of Monotheism.

A good book to check out, on the subject, is "Reign of the Phallus," by Eva C. Keuhls, which discusses "sexual politics in ancient Athens", and touches on other Classical Age societies, as well.

[Giorgos]

By the way, Leonidas in the film, did not describe thesbeians as boy lovers, but atheneians if i remember correctly.

It's not about discrimination Heron, it's about reality.

[Racer X]

Yeah, you're trusting a history channel documentary made over ten years ago... apparently that's a more reliable source than Plutarch and Xenophon...

As I posted in another thread, our evidence on Spartan sexual lifestyles isn't completely clear, but what we have demonstrates that if anything, the city encouraged homophobia rather than bisexuality.

Mind you, I don't at all agree with what Lykurgus thought in that aspect at all, as my best friend happens to be gay.

[mitchverr]

so what if they r gay good for them builds the bonds of the brothers in arms so they fight stronger as a unit this is why it was encouraged and also in the women as well

[El Muerte]

Oh god....not again...........
Wiedespread Spartan pederasty is myth mostly made up by Athenians.
Even Aristotle confirmed that......who was btw homosexual.And Xenophon and Lycurgus also denies it...

[Praetorian Captain]

romans and alexander the great was said to be a booty buster als

In the Roman citizen branch there was this, however it was discouraged in the Army. Many legionaires looked forward to whoring (and rap) after a victory. The bond between legionaires was a bond that close kinsmen, Brothers namely, have. Since kinsmen will look out for each other they will protect the other. Not to mention that the late roman army was still made up of citizens but they were either non-Italian or half-breeds. This could have been the case in Sparta as well that they aimed for a bond of kinsmen rather then a bond of lovers.

[McMoose77]

romans and alexander the great was said to be a booty buster als

In the Roman citizen branch there was this, however it was discouraged in the Army. Many legionaires looked forward to whoring (and rap) after a victory. The bond between legionaires was a bond that close kinsmen, Brothers namely, have. Since kinsmen will look out for each other they will protect the other. Not to mention that the late roman army was still made up of citizens but they were either non-Italian or half-breeds. This could have been the case in Sparta as well that they aimed for a bond of kinsmen rather then a bond of lovers.

I agree, I mean the love between brothers is way different than lovers (well I guess it can get a little blurry in rural areas)

[Exploder]

Oh god....not again...........
Wiedespread Spartan pederasty is myth mostly made up by Athenians.
Even Aristotle confirmed that......who was btw homosexual.And Xenophon and Lycurgus also denies it...

Wait, weren't Aristotle homophobic?

[Snevets]

If you give a pedifile alot of money and power, chances are he's going to use it to the extreme. A couple extreme cases trickle down through history and all of the sudden everyone thinks the Romans were extremely immoral. A couple instances of relationships between soldiers and some confusion about the meaning of the word partner and all of the sudden you have this theory about the spartans and thebans being all gay. The ancients were often far more intolerant of homosexuality than the modern world, especially legally. We may have societal norms that shun many people, but the ancients often had laws against them (take the death sentences against Spartan mentors who had relations with their pupils). People really need to abandon this theory that everyone in the ancient world was gay.

[HopliteGlory]

Yeah, my little bro attends the largest university in our state. He has a class on Ancient Greece, and upon his return home for X-mas break I asked what he had learned. Amongst many interesting things, he said,"[I]Man[I], everyone was gay back then." I was a little taken aback, but when he told me he was also informed that there were in fact ONLY 300 spartans at Thermopylae...?(don't know what the deal is with that statement, maybe my bro misunderstood). But everyone gay?

[El Muerte]

From what i saw in you post...tell your bro to change unerversity....or....mabye you should tell him to PAY ATTENTION ON CLASSES

[Racer X]

A lot of lecturers at unis still teach the gay Greek theory that really began to appear in education during the 1870s thanks to the likes of Walter Pater. Sad that even professionals are getting paid when they can't read Greek and are still trusting the same old translations.

I'm not going to say anything bad about your brother of course, but I think it'd be better time spent doing a course on learning Greek before doing classical studies.

[Praetorian Captain]

I did some looking up on the subject, and from what i can tell from some points of view the Greeks used the term 'Boy Lovers' as an insult to a certain group. Those who seemed to be pro Spartan and anti Athenian referred to them as boy lovers, while it was also the same for those Pro athenian and anti Spartan. Some historians probably read these and decided that it meant that they were actually boy lovers and that they were not just being insulted through this persons views.

[green tea]

Well, I am neither gay nor have I used my time machine to visit the ancient times (its next on my travel plan), so I don't know, of course. But this gay thing perhaps was not so immoral back then. Yes, strange for me also, but if those gay people are not called "pervert" or whatsoever, maybe it's okay- and fits in society. I have also heard very much of this stuff, not only in ancient greece, but also about the classic japaneese, and the very manly vikings. One possibility is of course, that this is a result of a conspiracy by a homosexual 130 years ago- another is that this statemant is false. Or, in other words- if so many people in ancient greece liked boys- would it make any difference?