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  1. #1
    Rhah's Avatar S'eer of Fnords
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    Default "Shields up....Red Alert!"

    BBC.co.uk

    British scientists are planning to see whether a Star Trek-style deflector shield could be built to protect astronauts from radiation.
    They argue that magnetic shields could be deployed around spacecraft and on the surfaces of planets to deflect harmful energetic particles.

    Several countries' space agencies have announced their intentions to resume human exploration of the Solar System.

    Scientists hope to mimic the magnetic field which protects the Earth.

    Details have been presented at the Royal Astronomical Society's National Astronomy Meeting in Preston, UK.

    There are a variety of risks facing future space explorers, not least of which is the cancer-causing radiation from cosmic rays and solar flares that astronauts will encounter when they venture beyond the Earth's protective magnetic envelope, or magnetosphere.

    "The nice thing is that magnet technology is really quite evolved here on Earth. The question is can you take it into space? "

    Mike Hapgood,
    Rutherford-Appleton Laboratory

    The Earth's magnetosphere deflects many of the energetic particles from space; others are largely absorbed by the atmosphere.

    Between 1968 and 1973, the Apollo astronauts were only in space for about 10 days at a time.

    They were simply lucky not to have been in space during a major eruption on the Sun that would have flooded their spacecraft with deadly radiation.

    Crew members on the International Space Station can retreat to a thick-walled room during times of increased solar radiation.

    Stable field

    But these protective shelters would not be practical on long-duration space journeys, since the "drip-drip" of energised particles is thought to be as harmful to the health of astronauts as large solar storms.


    Potentially damaging solar activity is hard to predict

    The harmful particles come from the Sun, in the form of the solar wind, and from sources outside our Solar System.

    To create the deflector shield around a spacecraft or on the surface of a planet or moon, scientists need to generate a magnetic field and then fill it with ionised gas called plasma.

    The plasma would held in place by a stable magnetic field (without the magnetic field, the plasma would simply drift away). This shield could be deployed around a spacecraft or around astronauts on the surface of a planetary body such as the Moon.

    "You don't need much of a magnetic field to hold off the solar wind. You could produce the shield 20-30 kilometres away from the spacecraft," explained Dr Ruth Bamford, from the Rutherford-Appleton Laboratory in Didcot, UK, one of the scientists on the team.

    Dr Mike Hapgood, from the Didcot-based research centre, told BBC News: "The nice thing is that magnet technology is really quite evolved here on Earth. The question is can you take it into space?'"

    The team from Rutherford-Appleton plans to build an artificial magnetosphere in the laboratory. They would eventually like to fly a test satellite which would test the technology in space.

    'Shields on'

    The idea has been likened to the deflector shields which protect the USS Enterprise and other spacecraft in Star Trek. Like their fictional counterparts, these shields could also be switched on and off.


    An artificial magnetosphere could come in handy anywhere in the Solar System where humans would need to be for long durations.

    A permanent Moon base, of the type Nasa plans to build, could be buried under lunar soil to protect the occupants and equipment from space radiation. But inhabitants will still be vulnerable when venturing outside in their spacesuits.

    "Our warning systems aren't very good [for solar flares]. You might be able to say: 'this is a dangerous period in terms of solar activity', but you might be on red alert for weeks," said Dr Hapgood.

    "If you've got a problem, you might not want to wait a week to fix it. You might want a device to deploy on the surface as a shield that would blunt the effect of a flare at ten minutes' notice, it adds an extra level of safety."

    The idea for the shields draws on technology pioneered in experimental nuclear fusion reactors. Nuclear fusion is not yet a mature technology.

    It works on the principle that energy can be released by forcing together atomic nuclei rather than by splitting them, as in the case of the fission reactions that drive existing nuclear power stations.

    At the Jet experimental fusion facility at Culham in the UK, magnetic fields were used to keep plasma away from the interior wall of the reactor.

    This represents a reversal of that technology: "We want to use the same technique to keep an object in the middle away from plasma that's on the outside," said Dr Bamford.

    But the plasma needed to protect against particles from the solar wind and elsewhere would actually be weaker than that generated in experimental fusion reactors like Jet.
    Ok, maybe not quite the same principle as Star Trek, but technology like this will be absolutely necessary when we finally get around to sending manned missions out into the Solar system, or for putting colonies on the Moon.
    (The idea of a personal radiation shield is quite interesting as well)

    It also leads to an interesting question of whether this type of shield could be used (if it were powerful enough obviously) to deflect radiation or energy weapons in the future. If so, it looks like we'll be sticking to kinetic energy weapons for a while yet.
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  2. #2
    Niles Crane's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: "Shields up....Red Alert!"

    There's no point in exploring the solar system until we discover the Monolith.

  3. #3
    Thanatos's Avatar Now Is Not the Time
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    Default Re: "Shields up....Red Alert!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian Gray View Post
    There's no point in exploring the solar system until we discover the Monolith.
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    chris_uk_83's Avatar Physicist
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    Default Re: "Shields up....Red Alert!"

    It also leads to an interesting question of whether this type of shield could be used (if it were powerful enough obviously) to deflect radiation or energy weapons in the future. If so, it looks like we'll be sticking to kinetic energy weapons for a while yet.
    That depends on the type of energy weapon you intend to use. If it utilises charged particles then possibly, if it uses lasers (like we have already) then no, becasue light is not deflected to any great degree by a magnetic field.

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: "Shields up....Red Alert!"

    Quote Originally Posted by chris_uk_83 View Post
    That depends on the type of energy weapon you intend to use. If it utilises charged particles then possibly, if it uses lasers (like we have already) then no, becasue light is not deflected to any great degree by a magnetic field.
    Don't need magnetism to reflect laser light. A good old fashion mirror will suffice (or any other shiny surface).

    So stick to kinetics and high explosives (if its big enough and near enough, the shockwave will destroy the target).

  6. #6

    Default Re: "Shields up....Red Alert!"

    I read another one in UK where they are trying to use a magnetic field to make tanks, and other vehicles, immune to RPGs which is something like a Star Trek shield. Supposiding it disrupts the trigger on the grenade making it unable to fire. I wish I still had a link to that....
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  7. #7
    chris_uk_83's Avatar Physicist
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    Default Re: "Shields up....Red Alert!"

    Don't need magnetism to reflect laser light. A good old fashion mirror will suffice (or any other shiny surface).
    Yes, but it depends on the shinyness of the surface. If the laser is high powered enough and the surface has imperfections in it then it'll crack and get vapourised by the laser.

    But yes, kinetics and high explosives are much better. Plus they go bang, which is always a bonus

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    Sosobra's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: "Shields up....Red Alert!"

    Quote Originally Posted by chris_uk_83 View Post
    Yes, but it depends on the shinyness of the surface. If the laser is high powered enough and the surface has imperfections in it then it'll crack and get vapourised by the laser.

    But yes, kinetics and high explosives are much better. Plus they go bang, which is always a bonus
    But in the vastness of space kinetic weapons would have quite a distance to go and the target could move. While missiles are maneuverable , the amount of fuel required and the ability of the target to intercept , may make to expensive and make energy based weapons an viable alternative.
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    Default Re: "Shields up....Red Alert!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockstone View Post
    Don't need magnetism to reflect laser light. A good old fashion mirror will suffice (or any other shiny surface).

    So stick to kinetics and high explosives (if its big enough and near enough, the shockwave will destroy the target).
    Sosobra rightly points out that kinetic weapons are ill-suited to space. They require matter, which costs money to carry up, and are slow. Lasers strike the target before it can see them, which is a major advantage if battles occur over many thousands or even millions of miles (although we don't yet have the technology to focus them properly across millions of miles, to my knowledge). It's interesting to speculate what kinds of defenses would be devised against lasers. Is there any known method to create a perfect reflective or refractive shield?

    Kinetic weapons are probably not going to be supplanted anytime soon on Earth, though, although they may be augmented by various kinds of electromagnetic or other weapons, like the relatively nonlethal skin-heating weapon that's gotten so much press.
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  10. #10
    Sosobra's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: "Shields up....Red Alert!"

    Well to defend against a laser you use highly polished mirrors but the problem is upkeep and the mirrors being nicked by space dust.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: "Shields up....Red Alert!"

    Kinetic energy weapons will always have a place in our arsenal. Lasers are line of sight. If you need to shoot over a mountain I don't really see it as viable to set up a vast array of mirrors in space to bounce the ray back down to the surface. And having a remote controlled type flying vehicle with a mirror on it would not be viable due to stabilisation problems. There is no way you are going to have it be perfectly stable at several hundred or even thousand feet up to get an accurate shot. Especially seeing as how obsessed we are becoming for ever more accurate eapon systems. The wind currents are just to unpredictable up there and the propulsion system itself will vibrate it enough to throw off the aim.

    Also about kinetic energy weapons in space. I see no problem with using mass drivers/railguns (or any other similar device) in the future, both as a means of propulsion and a very effective weapon. Even if fired at only 5 percent the speed of light the mass would be travelling at 15,000 km/s. That would require a lot of energy I know but even slower speeds would be effective as long as we are not talking about fighting at ranges in excess of a couple of hundred thousand to 1 million km. I should think that weapons systems utilizing this technology would be the artillery of space battles. Faster speeds might be attainable as well who knows. lol The last part is just a guess though.
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    Sosobra's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: "Shields up....Red Alert!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitth'raw'nuruodo View Post
    Also about kinetic energy weapons in space. I see no problem with using mass drivers/railguns (or any other similar device) in the future, both as a means of propulsion and a very effective weapon. Even if fired at only 5 percent the speed of light the mass would be travelling at 15,000 km/s. That would require a lot of energy I know but even slower speeds would be effective as long as we are not talking about fighting at ranges in excess of a couple of hundred thousand to 1 million km. I should think that weapons systems utilizing this technology would be the artillery of space battles. Faster speeds might be attainable as well who knows. lol The last part is just a guess though.
    My best guest is that space battles will be fought from very long distances unless Wormholes that only occur at specific solar points are created /found. In
    that case battles would focus around those points and the rest of the solar system would be irrelevant since nobody could arrive unless they went sublight.


    Another possibility is combat that occurs by proxy between ships. For example in the Night's Dawn Trilogy, by Peter F. Hamilton ships launch UCSV (Unmanned Combat Space Vehicles) called combat wasps . These Wasps are loaded with missiles , mines, lasers etc depending on whether they are offensive or defensive. They engage away from their ships and whos ever wasps come on top usually wins because Starships themselves are fragile and cannot maneuver as fast as a computer (people tend to squish) . Starship to Starship combat would only occur as a last resort.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: "Shields up....Red Alert!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sosobra View Post
    My best guest is that space battles will be fought from very long distances unless Wormholes that only occur at specific solar points are created /found. In
    that case battles would focus around those points and the rest of the solar system would be irrelevant since nobody could arrive unless they went sublight.

    How far apart are you talking about? You make it sound like you mean the distance between planets far. Ships are not going to be engaging each other at tens of millions of miles. At those kind of distances there is significant lag even using laser weaponry. Maybe at some point in the EXTREMELY far distant future they will fight at those kind of ranges but for any forseeable point in the future man will still be contained in this solar system and therefore relatively close to each other. As our technological level increases ships are only going to increase in speed (as soon as we get a true "spaceship").

    I remember reading in Robert Heinlein's book "Expanded Universe" that if we had a ship that could accelerate at 1G we could get to Mars in a matter of days. But we don't. You would probably need some type of ,if you will forgive me, "inertial dampener" type system for humans to survive such acceleration. I do not know for sure. But I think in the future wormholes could be used for travel between solar systems and then a drive like that to transverese the system itself. If this even turns out to be possible that is (wormholes). If this turns out to be the case I think it is entirely possible that battles in space will be fought at relatively close distances.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sosobra View Post
    Another possibility is combat that occurs by proxy between ships. For example in the Night's Dawn Trilogy, by Peter F. Hamilton ships launch UCSV (Unmanned Combat Space Vehicles) called combat wasps . These Wasps are loaded with missiles , mines, lasers etc depending on whether they are offensive or defensive. They engage away from their ships and whos ever wasps come on top usually wins because Starships themselves are fragile and cannot maneuver as fast as a computer (people tend to squish) . Starship to Starship combat would only occur as a last resort.

    While this is obviously a possibility I hope it never comes to pass. The idea is just not nice to me. Being killed by a completely automated machine. I know I am dead either way but something about that just irks me. Ughhhh. I will get more in depth on this when I get home from work.
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  14. #14
    chris_uk_83's Avatar Physicist
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    Default Re: "Shields up....Red Alert!"

    if we had a ship that could accelerate at 1G we could get to Mars in a matter of days. But we don't. You would probably need some type of ,if you will forgive me, "inertial dampener" type system for humans to survive such acceleration. I do not know for sure.
    Nah, 1G is just the force that gravity exerts. So all you'd feel would be normal gravity (though it'd be caused by acceleration of your ship rather than actual gravity). The problem with accelerating at a constant 1G is that you tend to run out of fuel pretty quickly

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    Default Re: "Shields up....Red Alert!"

    Coolbeans then Chris. I thought it may have been something like that but I could not remember because I read that book so long ago.

    Yea, I realize that we will not be accelerating that quickly without different engines and significant technological advances. At the rate we seem to be actually attempting to "get out there" I don't think we have to worry about this for a while.

    Hell, I don't think we are going to do anything more than even get a small base on the moon in my lifetime. I hate to say that but I think it is true.

    So are you an applied physics major or what chris? I remember reading this somewhere else. I am actually in school right now to be an electrical engineer. It is pretty sweet so far. lol
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  16. #16

    Default Re: "Shields up....Red Alert!"

    I am still waiting for the day that a scientist will say that lightsabers can be made!

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  17. #17
    chris_uk_83's Avatar Physicist
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    Default Re: "Shields up....Red Alert!"

    Coolbeans then Chris
    Where has that word come from? I use that word and I thought I made it up, I must not have.

    So are you an applied physics major or what chris?
    I'm a nuclear engineer with a masters degree in physics (not applied physics, those people are called engineers), but you don't need a physics degree to understand G-force . We can already accelerate much much faster than 1G. A well trained human body in a g-suit can take up to about 8G or 3 negative G before it loses consciousness, and our machines can go better than that, they just have to be unmanned.

    The problem with accelerating in space is there's nothing to push against, like an aeroplane pushes against the air with its propeller to drag it along. In space you have to eject mass out of the back so the recoil will send you forwards (Newton's second law F = ma Google it). This means you have to carry sufficient mass to eject, and more mass equals more fuel equals more weight to get off the ground in the first place.

    Lightsabres would be cool.

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  18. #18

    Default Re: "Shields up....Red Alert!"

    Quote Originally Posted by chris_uk_83 View Post
    Where has that word come from? I use that word and I thought I made it up, I must not have.

    I'm a nuclear engineer with a masters degree in physics (not applied physics, those people are called engineers), but you don't need a physics degree to understand G-force . We can already accelerate much much faster than 1G. A well trained human body in a g-suit can take up to about 8G or 3 negative G before it loses consciousness, and our machines can go better than that, they just have to be unmanned.

    At my college we have engineers and applied physicists as separate degrees. While they are similar they are not the same.

    Our "spaceships" can't other wise it would not take so long to get to Mars even not counting the fact that it could be on the other side of the sun. I am talking about accelerating at 9.8 m/s/s constantly halfway there and then flipping the ship around and doing the same thing for the second half. I know we have planes that can turn or climb or dive and experience those forces but they cannot accelerate constantly at that speed for the immense distances between planets. I wish I had that book up here with me so I could clear anything up for sure. Because Robert Heinlein is the man (I know he is dead but he is still the man)



    Quote Originally Posted by chris_uk_83 View Post
    The problem with accelerating in space is there's nothing to push against, like an aeroplane pushes against the air with its propeller to drag it along. In space you have to eject mass out of the back so the recoil will send you forwards (Newton's second law F = ma Google it). This means you have to carry sufficient mass to eject, and more mass equals more fuel equals more weight to get off the ground in the first place.

    Without trying to sound rude or anything like that I already have a firm grasp on simple physics. Also, the first true spaceships (manned) will not be launched from Earth for the simple fact that you mentioned concerning the weight.


    Quote Originally Posted by chris_uk_83 View Post
    Lightsabres would be cool.

    You are my brother. No seriously. Also, I have no idea where I first heard the word coolbeans. It was a long time ago though. I was definitely a little kid.

    I am going to go get that book hopefully tonight so I can read the part I was talking about again. I do not even know if we are disagreeing about anything. If we are it is prolly because I am recalling something incorrectly.
    Last edited by Mitth'raw'nuruodo; May 01, 2007 at 11:43 AM.
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  19. #19
    chris_uk_83's Avatar Physicist
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    Default Re: "Shields up....Red Alert!"

    No, we agree on all aspects as I understand it. I certainly agree with everything you said in your last post

    Except the engineer/applied physics thing. But that's just 'pure physicist' snobbery on my part in fact, engineers are better than applied physicists because at least they don't claim to know everything!
    (that was a joke, I don't really mean it before anyone gets offended. Pure physicists are more clever though )

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  20. #20

    Default Re: "Shields up....Red Alert!"

    Sweet. Then in that case, ENGINEERING FTW!!!!!!!

    Physics is pretty interesting though, I will give you that.

    Damn I want a lightsaber.
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