The Caliph

[Qarama]

is it possible to have a Caliph?

what about the idea that if you are a good leader or did some kind of missions you are the Caliph.
And if you are the Caliph you have special abilitys.
Or if one leader conquers the Caliph's countries he is the new Caliph.

Something like the Pope in the normal Medieval2 game....

[Heroic Heretic]

sounds like a great idea!

[Miraj]

There won't be a Caliph system mirroring the Papacy because its not historically correct (caliph's were not really that divinely regarded as the pope) and its also hardcoded.

What there will be is instead a very powerful "Caliph" title that any Muslim faction leader can get - he just has to kill the current holder of that title. So the game will start with the Abbasid Caliph having it. If you kill the Caliph in battle and you're a muslim faction you can gain that title. The Caliph title would give you boosts in authority, piety, command, tax bonus etc.

I

[Dreadking]

What there will be is instead a very powerful "Caliph" title that any Muslim faction leader can get - he just has to kill the current holder of that title. So the game will start with the Abbasid Caliph having it. If you kill the Caliph in battle and you're a muslim faction you can gain that title. The Caliph title would give you boosts in authority, piety, command, tax bonus etc.

What if the holder of the Caliph title dies naturally (old age), will his successor or heir inherit the Caliph title?

[Miraj]

What if the holder of the Caliph title dies naturally (old age), will his successor or heir inherit the Caliph title?

Yes, its passed down.

[deRougemont]

There won't be a Caliph system mirroring the Papacy because its not historically correct (caliph's were not really that divinely regarded as the pope) and its also hardcoded.

What there will be is instead a very powerful "Caliph" title that any Muslim faction leader can get - he just has to kill the current holder of that title. So the game will start with the Abbasid Caliph having it. If you kill the Caliph in battle and you're a muslim faction you can gain that title. The Caliph title would give you boosts in authority, piety, command, tax bonus etc.

Very interesting concept, looking forward to it.

[Ez-Zaghal]

i think it would be better if the Caliph was a non-entity like the emperor in Shogun as the last fatimid caliph dies in 1571 allowing saladin to claim power in eqypt but later the mamluks have their own client abbasid caliph while other factions rise and fall or refuse to acknowledge caliphal authority, or the Turks claiming the title after 1258.

so he becomes a pawn, whoever holds baghdad gets the supports of the abbasid caliph and a nice authority (+piety bonus) for their faction leader, representing the caliph recognising the faction leader as the eminent muslim leader and defender of the word or something.

but it starts of as the abbasid caliphate (understandably) hold baghdad and get the bonus.

[gaius valerius]

(i earlier added a similar post to the topic of the abbasids, but i just wanted to reply to this one as well )

@ Ez-Zaghal: the last abbasid caliph died/was stripped (i dont recall srry) of its title in 1517 (not 71) by the ottoman sultan who from then on carried 2 titles ==> sultan & caliph, the title only disappeared in 1923/24 when ataturk abolished it and since then nobody ever really claimed it again.

the caliph shoudn't be pope-like, but the title should be hereditary and constant, meaning if the abbasid empire was destroyed, the title would live on in the title of its conqueror, so if i'm saladin, sultan of eqypt and i immediately conquer the abbasid lands, i should become saladin, sultan of egypt & caliph of the islamic world.

the title should have important loyalty bonusses throughout the empire, and to not make everybody want to destroy them perhaps being allied to the abbasids could also raise your prestige.

the caliph as a political power ceased to excist in the 10th century, from that day on he became a pope-like figure, living in an ivory palace for the coming centuries, being only of use for legitimacy of those who controlled him

simple

[kobi118]

will I need to kill him with my faction leader?
or even army without general will do?

[PartyElite]

how about the Caliph "handing out" traits/titles? i had mentioned one in the traits and ancillaries thread. Apparently, this did happen historically: Qutb-ud-din Aibak [i think it was him or Illtutmish] had recieved that title for his success in spreading islam.

here it is:

Sultan-i-Azam
Affects: Muslims
Trigger: Has spread islam to 4 provinces. / has made 4 provinces get 50% islam
Description: This man has been named a
Sultan-i-Azam by the Khalifa. He is now 
respected among the Muslims of the world 
because of his great acts to spread the 
words of Allah to infidels.
Effects: +3 piety, +2 loyalty, + to public order

it would be a nice 'honour' i think to recieve that title, and it might add to the fun !
tell me if this is possible, and i could cook up some more?

cheers
-indian_boy

[Miraj]

@Kobi

Yeah, you would have to kill him. However if the Caliph gets killed by a Christian faction then I'm not too sure... maybe the the Muslim faction that takes Baghdad or Mecca get the title or maybe it will be based on your factions strength.

@IndianBoy
I think its impossible to code anyone to actually "give" titles. Instead we could give these titles based on things you do. But the spreading Islam to 4 provinces seems a bit complicated.

[Ez-Zaghal]

when the abbaside caliphs deposed the omeyyads they soon after moved the seat of the caliphate to baghdad where it was destoryed by the mongols in 1258, before the deposing of the omeyyads the calpihs had sat in damascus.

after the mongols the turkish sultan claimed the title (not sure when) and the sultan's contiuned to claim it for a very long time.

At the beginning of the caplih's they weilded a great deal of power with the entire islamic world being under their authority, they were responsible for the appointing of governors to provinces for example.

the Omeyyads were deposed in 750 by Es-Seffah the first Abbaside caliph, he earned the name "the butcher". It is thought the capihate went into decline during it's last 300 years and that by 1258 it lanquished in baghdad on the sufference of truly independent islamic states, notably the ottomon turks who rarely submitted to the authority of the caliph.

[Miraj]

True. The Caliphate was indeed nothing more than a city state with purely symbolic power by the 12th century. However in 1175 and cunning new Caliph named "An Nasir" sought to bring back the glory of the olden days and attacked the Seljuks and threw them out of Iraq. He revitilzed the abbasid army and reimposed the caliphates political and military independence. Only the Mongol invasion (something which he partially provoked) ended that resurgence rather quickly.

[Ermeni]

i was just wondering....lets say i play as egypt and send out one of my generals who is not the faction leader and kill the abbasid calpih.. will the general then be the new caliph even though he is not even a faction leader....??

[AlokaParyetra]

I would think that the title would go to your faction leader, right? Because all your general's and captains fight under ur faction leader's might, so anything they do, they do for ur leader.

[teh.frickin.pope]

Having it on whoever kills the caliph would be better because if he was very loyal, you now have the caliph in your pocket, if he is low loyalty you now have a very dangerous threat of rebellion. You'd have to be careful who you did it with.

[gaius valerius]

the caliph should go to the leader of a faction, its the only sensible thing, no way, no mere general should become caliph!! its suppose to be the most important title in the islamic world. either the caliph should be a puppet figure added to your faction as a sort of trait, or your faction leader should become (for example) sultan/caliph. the mamelukes in 1261 appointed a new abbasid as caliph, and when 300 years later the ottomans destroyed the mamelukes as a political power in 1517, the ottoman sultan claimed the title of caliph as his own, not his generals who won the battles. the logic is simple: the title of caliph is the most important title in the islam world and should thus be linked to its strongest power, at the time the ottomans. so you cant have generals becoming caliph.

ever heard about a king making his generals kings for defeating another king??? only napoleon did such things and thats in the early 19th century, nearly 400 years after the medieval period.

i think having it as a trait to your faction leader is the best option.

[Zephrelial]

the caliph should go to the leader of a faction, its the only sensible thing, no way, no mere general should become caliph!! its suppose to be the most important title in the islamic world. either the caliph should be a puppet figure added to your faction as a sort of trait, or your faction leader should become (for example) sultan/caliph. the mamelukes in 1261 appointed a new abbasid as caliph, and when 300 years later the ottomans destroyed the mamelukes as a political power in 1517, the ottoman sultan claimed the title of caliph as his own, not his generals who won the battles. the logic is simple: the title of caliph is the most important title in the islam world and should thus be linked to its strongest power, at the time the ottomans. so you cant have generals becoming caliph.

ever heard about a king making his generals kings for defeating another king??? only napoleon did such things and thats in the early 19th century, nearly 400 years after the medieval period.

i think having it as a trait to your faction leader is the best option.

I think BC team could use the same trait and strat system just like the Pope,when someone becomes faction leader it should become Caliph,have distinctive strat model..Maybe to relate jihads with the Caliph would also be nice and logical.Of course the Caliphate should be exclusive t o the faction The Caliphate of the Abbasids,which would give the faction a nice quality and an another reason to play it..

[gaius valerius]

off course, the abbasid caliphate has the caliph at the start of the game and thus a very great advantage. but jihads aren't his monopoly. the idea of a jihad had nothing to do with the caliph but was introduced by hard-liner sholars in the madrasses (don't know if i'm spelling the plural form correct ) and at first totally ignored by worldy leaders. the first to actively use it were the atabegs in the syria-iraqi region, from mosul and the like. the caliph had very little to do with it.

and the question is what to do with the title caliph when the abbasids are destroyed as a faction; they can't be like a pope like survivor and become a horde. either it becomes a puppet dynasty of a state (like in history the mamelukes), or an anciliarry trait of your faction leader (like in history the ottomans).

interesting would be the question what to do when the caliphate is destroyed by infidels??? AHA!!!!

options:

- it becomes vacant till the last capital of the abbasids would be recaptured by muslims. problem: the title of caliph is historically seen not linked to a city (for ex. baghdad)

- it goes to the most powerfull faction at that time? problem: is a bit random

- it should go to the faction linked the closest to the abbasids, for example their best (muslim) ally. historically seen the abbasids gave legitimacy to mostly just 1 regime at a time, being the one "possesing" the abbasid family. problem: how do you decide such ties in TW??

- have the muslim faction fight amongst each other till all acknowledge one state as the most powerful, and thus holder of the caliphate? problem: how do you integrate such a 'competition' in a game like TW, i dont think the diplomatic options and AI are advanced enough to simulate such a thing...

- have it become vacant and set a sort of "mission goals" to obtain it. for example, "the caliphate has become vacant, be the first to capture 20 regions (with those you alrdy have) including the capitals of this & that faction & baghdad, etc..."

- its just a very problematic issue

[Ez-Zaghal]

I think that the best way to do it would be;

The abbasid's start of with the caliph trait (kinda obvious) and its hereditary unless the faction leader is killed in battle by another muslim faction or the faction is destroyed.

If the faction is destroyed, without the trait being passed over, ie the caliph is in country and you reduce them to 0 settlements then the trait/title should go to the first muslim faction to hold Baghdad.

I say Baghdad because thats where the Caliph ruled from at this point, and it's easier for the muslim factions to get to than mecca/medina.

I dont know if you can code the this though, if not then the other to options are...

the caliph trait could be lost in the above circumstances, you could even have a notice saying something like "The last Abbasid Caliph has died without an heir, many Muslim Kings now claim the title leaving Islam divided"

(i quite like that idea)

Or you can make it purely hereditary, ie it never leaves the Abbasid faction.