Viking raiding

[Dansk viking]

How were you planning on making the viking raiding realistic? I think this is one of the most important things, as the game mainly is about the viking raids.

I suggest when vikings capture town, implementing new options like, pillage settlement. (you get a lot of money, and gives the settlement back to it's previous owner) or, ransom settlement back to previous owner.

[mocker]

Viking raids will mostly consist of the player using the standard TW raiding technique:

1. Attack a (preferably wealthy)region.
2. Sack it
3. Demolish it's buildings for cash (viking factions will get more florins back from demolishing than other factions)
4. Leave the region empty
5. Let the dogs have it! Let the region collapse into rebellion, thereby reducing to rebels.
6. Repeat the cycle.

[Antagonist]

Viking raids will mostly consist of the player using the standard TW raiding technique:

1. Attack a (preferably wealthy)region.
2. Sack it
3. Demolish it's buildings for cash (viking factions will get more florins back from demolishing than other factions)
4. Leave the region empty
5. Let the dogs have it! Let the region collapse into rebellion, thereby reducing to rebels.
6. Repeat the cycle.

That's pretty much how I envisioned it. It may not be possible to do things like add new options for captured settlements, or give Vikings more demolishion money then other factions.

Although I think something could be done, maybe. Like giving all Norse faction characters an invisible trait increasing income from looting, or something. Hmm...

Antagonist

[mocker]

The demolishing bonus for pagan vikings was in VI, so I think it's possible.

[Antagonist]

VI ain't RTW or M2TW, different engine and all that. It's alright for CA, they can code in whatever they want, but modders don't have that luxury, they must make do with whatever's already there, can't implement a wholly new mechanic.

Still, I reckon a way can be found to something like that, possibly with traits.

Antagonist

[Dansk viking]

sounds good ... But is there a way of getting the AI to raid and not settle untill say, around 850?

[mocker]

There's not really much of a point of doing that. The AI should do what serves the AI best, not necessarily following history.
If raiding or settling suits the AI at the given time, by all means, let the AI raid/settle.

[Kahju]

I don't think the Vikings should have a factional demolishing bonus. Many other factions also raided regularly, and it might be difficult to determine which factions should have the pillaging bonus. I think we should instead use personal traits for the bonuses - of course, these might very well be more common among the raider factions than, for example, the Franks or the Byzantines.

[mocker]

I don't think the Vikings should have a factional demolishing bonus. Many other factions also raided regularly, and it might be difficult to determine which factions should have the pillaging bonus. I think we should instead use personal traits for the bonuses - of course, these might very well be more common among the raider factions than, for example, the Franks or the Byzantines.

Raiding bonus wouldn't be there for direct historical reasons, but it would be good gameplay-wise:
The pagan norse factions should rely on raiding for economic growth, while christian factions will be building for economy.

This means the vikings will be forced to raid, while Christian factions are better off playing more defensively.

Knasp: we're still not sure, but we know that the norse factions launched several greater invasions, not just raiding parties:
-Danish/norwegian conquest of the british isles
-Harald Fairhair's invasion of Götaland(the geats)
-Norwegian struggle for the scottish/norse islands

See, the norse factions were motivated by conquest as well as any other faction, raiding was just a mean to reach an end.

Raiding --> resources
Resources --> Weaponry and soldier upkeep for the armies
Armies --> invasions
Invasions --> more land for the norsemen
Land --> goal

The norse war machineries were essentially fuelled by raiding.
Questions?

[Knasp]

I have a question for the mod team. How will the vikings victory conditions look like? I don't think the goals of the vikings should be to expand, meaning that you conquer and control more land. Perhaps the goal should be to raid Constantinople, Rome?, Paris?...
Or the goals could be to control all the rivers important for trade.
Mind you the vikings were not only raiders but also traders.

Overall, your mod looks cool and I'm really looking forward to see more of your work.

[Harðurāðaz]

I have a question for the mod team. How will the vikings victory conditions look like? I don't think the goals of the vikings should be to expand, meaning that you conquer and control more land. Perhaps the goal should be to raid Constantinople, Rome?, Paris?...
Or the goals could be to control all the rivers important for trade.
Mind you the vikings were not only raiders but also traders.

Overall, your mod looks cool and I'm really looking forward to see more of your work.

Well the Svía Faction should conquer some regions in russia (So the Kiev faction can emerge from them) and conquer Denmark (The swedish king Eric the Victorious did it).
And the Gautar should defend their homeland from norwegians and swedes and maybe conquer some regions on modern day poland?*

[mocker]

Well the Svía Faction should conquer some regions in russia (So the Kiev faction can emerge from them) and conquer Denmark (The swedish king Eric the Victorious did it).
And the Gautar should defend their homeland from norwegians and swedes and maybe conquer some regions on modern day poland?*

Swedish conquest of Poland was much later, wasn't it?

And I don't think king Erik actually conquered Denmark... Invade Denmark, yes, but did he really conquer all of Denmark? Although it could of course be made a goal!

[Harðurāðaz]

Swedish conquest of Poland was much later, wasn't it?

And I don't think king Erik actually conquered Denmark... Invade Denmark, yes, but did he really conquer all of Denmark? Although it could of course be made a goal!

Some swedes sent expeditions their to fight the vends.

Eric proclaimed himself king of both Sweden and Denmark.
But the danish king Sweyn Forkbeard retook denmark some years later.

[Knasp]

The norse war machineries were essentially fuelled by raiding.
Questions?

Yeah, what about plundering provinces? I don't mean sieges but just standing around with your army in a enemy province. I don't think you earned much cash from this in medieval 2.
Could you give army stacks an merchant function?
So for instance you could place small villages/monasteries on the campaign map being a plunderable resource for enemy armies.

[der Kaiser]

I think being able to go on rivers is essential to the Vikings. Thats was a huge advantage their ships gave.

[Beiss]

Most importantly, the Viking factions should not be able to just sit around in their homelands. They should then starve to death or become bankrupt. There must be a sentiment to go overseas and kill people other than the "ffs, I'm playing a war game" one. Emulate whatever it was that caused the Vikings to go raiding and force it on the player. That's what I think. And this has been brought up before, many times, I just want us to keep it in mind.

[PartyElite]

give all the norse cities negative incomes?

[Beiss]

No, but perhaps, really crappy farming, causing serious pop growth penalties (>> negative pop growth) or something. This would result in really bad economy, public order and the impossibility of improving your infrastructure properly. A raided town serves as a trade partner as long as you're in control of it, causing massive bonuses to the above mentioned properties (growth, order, income) in your poor, famined settlement, plus give you lots of money (to improve infrastructure). Add to this the odd raiding party from other factions, who you will eventually want to destroy just to make them stop annoying you with their silly little boats.

[mocker]

No, but perhaps, really crappy farming, causing serious pop growth penalties (>> negative pop growth) or something. This would result in really bad economy, public order and the impossibility of improving your infrastructure properly. A raided town serves as a trade partner as long as you're in control of it, causing massive bonuses to the above mentioned properties (growth, order, income) in your poor, famined settlement, plus give you lots of money (to improve infrastructure). Add to this the odd raiding party from other factions, who you will eventually want to destroy just to make them stop annoying you with their silly little boats.

That's not balanced. The Norse factions should have income, and decent farming capacity.

What makes the Norse forced to raid would be expensive unit upkeep/cost, but mostly the lack of Christian religious structures that provide income ("Church tax" going to the government).

The Norse should be able to survive (though barely) without raiding, but they wouldn't be able to gain military or economical advantage over Christian factions, and much less win the campaign.

The theory of Scandinavia having scarce resources and great famines is not supported by any evidence at all. On the contrary, archeological findings of graves and settlements tells us that the Norse were quite prosper even before the era of military raids.
Håvamål even says "At home, life is easy[...]", and goes on with praising the adventurous spirit of the average Viking.

[Beiss]

Fine. So what did spark the great adventures?

The same reason as in the game? Conquering new lands to get your economy up to where you can get those really cool units on the top of the tech tree? Or was it really the high upkeep? ... if life was so good, then why did they even bother to go raiding? Because the good life was boring?