What did Jesus/God really give up for us? (this isn't a religion bashing thing just a question)

[VoodooTengo]

I was listining to someone talk the other day about Jesus dying for our sins (i'm religious i just dont think his death should be the focus of religion) which brought several things to my mind.

First off Jesus was the son of God so therefore dying for him wouldnt have been a big deal, (i dont know about you guys but if i knew i was going to heaven i would be more than happy to go get scourged and crucified). I also dont really think God gave up anything by sending Jesus to earth, because (or i personally believe) God is everywhere and in everything so he was always with him still, and God would have known that Jesus would come back about 30 years later which in the great scheme of things is not long at all.

Thats really all i have to say but i want to see how people will respond to that

(P.S I'm not trying to bash Jesus or anything like that he was the man)

[Segestan]

What can be given that could be greater?

Atonement was a part of the ancient world. It was an expectation that the people simply expected through tradition. Though the forced division of the races. . In the Universe of no time: A balance, a deal must be struck for the human drama to proceed on a given ideological course. Jesus thus gave that which was required in his day.... his life. His atonement.
Sacrifice was the norm in the ancient world, pain was everywhere.

You ask did God really give up anything? ...... Well he could have simply made it possible that his son should never even have come into a finite life , such as a mortal , one so ripe with danger, sent him on a mission for mankind , (could this not be only from a righteous God) to only be scourged , nailed to a savage thing as a cross, then hear his son’s cries of forgiveness for these people, as he bleed to death on his mortal journey, ending his life experience in pain and sorrow . His atonement for his killers . What a terrible feeling for God and his son alike. Both to know that those they must through moral duty , must protect and uphold that they may live , seeing the mortals of the earth, the finite adventurer’s they themselves uphold , should murder his son , should murder him, with such ignorance of the ideas of mercy. What a terrible mission to undertake for a God and his god like son alike. It is Not God that can place morality in the soul. Morality must come from the soul. The earth is a place for the acts of freewill from the soul to express itself. God and Son alike felt that cruelty of an ignorant group of souls on an earthly journey.

When reading religious text the reader gets the impression that God is a power alone unto himself. That No other power or being in the vastness of space of the universe can compare with such righteous grandeur. Nor compare in power.
That the Earth and All things are created by him. The untouchable God. This is the general theme that religious text seems to portray of God....Gd.,

The Roman Imperial Cult was founded prior to Christ mission and for example only ; Julius Caesar was within this order a God. He had attained this honor after his defeating of the Gauls , he is accredited with having defeated and saved Rome from 1,200,000 Gallic warriors, and then defeating the Pompeians ,his enemy within the worlds greatest Republic . He then by decree of the Roman Senate was given his own priesthood these called the.... Julian’s. He was in the Rom,an World of Order a God amongst men. After his murder , by the very persons who had had shown clemency and mercy, he was murdered at the foot of the statue of Pompey, by that very senate, His Son Augustus resumed his fathers position as the civilized worlds leader . He to was proclaimed the savior of the world. Augustus was in the Roman Imperial cult the worlds Messiah. There was a general expectation of a great deity throughout the civilized world, as to in Jerusalem, then a Roman Province. In fact Augustus personally governed Judea. . In the age of Augustus the world saw improvements in its social order , its roads were built to cross the empire, the empire was expanded, trade was booming , people were generally better-off , the pirates on the seas had been at least contained.... the world was in relative terms at peace.
Jesus came into the world in the ‘Age of Augustus’.
In this age the moment seemed to be , the expectation was, that the ideas of Peace could be espoused with the highest degree of success. It was an age of Expectation. But sacrifice was still ripe in the olden religions. The ideas of giving blood for atonement was a left-over, ancient idealistic symbolism of the human struggle itself.
Christianity was a message of salvation. Of Hope. A message of Salvation that all men can share, aspire and attain by the virtues of righteous living.
To my knowledge it was during this age , the Augustan Age that the ideas of Mercy really began to take hold in the human mind. Not that others of great morality had not tried for centuries , they had. But during the Age of Augustus it was better possible to attain. Never before had such ideas of human dignity been espoused. Spoke by such a great orator as Christ. That the right of freedom is for all men, that bondage belonged was immoral, that all persons self-worth and value as a human being , as an individual did not come from the order of the state or King alone, but came through the freewill acts of moral man himself. That a moral social order was needed throughout the civilized world. This was the message of Augustus and Christ alike. One was a mortal King the other a realized Messenger King. Was Augustus merely trying to place himself as the worlds messiah because of the known expectation? Maybe! In the eyes of the Universe Augustus through his great abilities as a ruler set the stage for the coming Messiah. But Christ lived as that Messiah , through his super-natural deeds of mercy and his returning to this life as he had promised his apostles. .
Did God give anything less symbolically through his own son, than Caesar did through his own son Augustus.? I think Not.

Jesus’ preaching’s , showing great mercy , his missions , done as such with miracles of salvation, by his showing to all , that salvation is a human right of all moral men, that man nor his salvation , as a free thinking being is not the sole property of the state . Before Augustus and Christ the King decided the fate of all his subjects. Individual rights of self-expression really began in this age, though not exclusive of it.
Jesus returned to life just as he said he would; he returned to show that through righteous acts of humanity to man, the mortal can gain salvation from death. Heaven is a place that saves the finite element, the body , not merely the soul. What good is it to the soul alone , without a vehicle and a place to express ones freewill?

I think the mission’s of Christ as well that of the mortal Augustus Caesar have both helped set the world towards a better experience. That’s not to say that those who subscribed to those ideas or did not kept the Age alive. The dynamic world we live on simply won’t allow that. But the general trend since Christ as been an improved human experience. In relative terms that is.

[VoodooTengo]

You ask did God really give up anything?... While he could have made it possible that his son never came into a finite life, such as a mortal

What I'm saying is that in a world where your soul and essense are industructable than mortality is only a state of mind. In exchange for getting into heaven would you not happily sacrifice your life?

You also talk about how "God and Son alike felt the cruelty of an ignorent group of souls", but as (in my opinion) the book of Job proves that cruelty and misfortune in life are temporary but the repayment for suffering such indiginites and misfortunes is more than made up for in death, so i would ask you agaiin Did God/Jesus really give up anything?

Mercy was also no stranger to the time before Jesus. Even Julius Caesar as you talked about was on occasion merciful to his eneimes (pardoning the Senators who went against him as opposed to having them crucified). Also since God is untouchable as you say then what harm can having his son come home do to him?

Also it wasnt through Jesus that all men were told through righteous living that they could achieve salvation it was through St.Paul. The New Testament is also not against bondage (It tells the slave to obey his master for if he does he will have salvation, it tells a woman to obey her husband for he must obey God) and in essence are we not all in bondage to God?

Mercy also wasnt more prevalent after Jesus was around many Christian leaders where hipocrites and extemely violent, though Jesus himself was merciful.

I also dont really think you had a good point about Augustus, he dismanteled the Roman Republic, though he brought peace he brought it at the point of a sword and not for the good of humanity but for the good of himself. He also supported Herod and brought the hipocrasy and cruelty the Jews had to suffer under him.

[shane32ie]

Yeah but jesus Isn't Gods son, he is god, they are one. He gave himself up for the good of others just to teach humans a lesson, as thats what god wants us to do, help others.

[Dunecat]

Yeah but jesus Isn't Gods son, he is god, they are one. He gave himself up for the good of others just to teach humans a lesson, as thats what god wants us to do, help others.

Wrong?

[therussian]

Yeah but jesus Isn't Gods son, he is god, they are one. He gave himself up for the good of others just to teach humans a lesson, as thats what god wants us to do, help others.

Jesus is both God's son AND God himself.

[shane32ie]

Jesus is both God's son AND God himself.

Oh right my bad, I didnt know you asked god himself and he told you, or was it jesus you asked? Well they sure proved me wrong.

[Mathias]

Yeah but jesus Isn't Gods son, he is god, they are one. He gave himself up for the good of others just to teach humans a lesson, as thats what god wants us to do, help others.

Jesus himself didn't seem to be aware of that he was God though.

[iudas]

If I cut an apple in three parts, each part is... apple, but if I say one part is the son of another, and one of them is a ghost (of course, I blaspheme...), I have the Holy Trinity. Basically, that's it. Or at least how I know it.

Jesus descended on earth for our salvation. And his death is not the focus of Christianity; the cross he died on is just a symbol of martyrdom. His Resurrection is the focus our religion: the fact that the Messiah once came as a human and brought us the word of God.

[jankren]

If I cut an apple in three parts, each part is... apple, but if I say one part is the son of another, and one of them is a ghost (of course, I blaspheme...), I have the Holy Trinity. Basically, that's it. Or at least how I know it.

I dont think it is a sensical analogy because if you cut an apple each part of the apple is still apple in substance just like the river, the ocean and the glazier even though they look different but they are still H2O in substance. However in the case of trinity, God and the holy spirit are not only different in form than Jesus but also in substance. Jesus himself said that God is spirit which noone can see while himself is a son of man made up of flesh.

So can you explain more about this Holy Trinity with better explanation?

[Drtad]

I believe this has something to do with Diophysitism, where Jesus has both a human and a divine nature. I can't quit put my finger on it though.

[Garnier]

I was listining to someone talk the other day about Jesus dying for our sins (i'm religious i just dont think his death should be the focus of religion) which brought several things to my mind.

First off Jesus was the son of God so therefore dying for him wouldnt have been a big deal, (i dont know about you guys but if i knew i was going to heaven i would be more than happy to go get scourged and crucified). I also dont really think God gave up anything by sending Jesus to earth, because (or i personally believe) God is everywhere and in everything so he was always with him still, and God would have known that Jesus would come back about 30 years later which in the great scheme of things is not long at all.

Thats really all i have to say but i want to see how people will respond to that

(P.S I'm not trying to bash Jesus or anything like that he was the man)

Well as I posted in another thread:

God judges people according to one thing. If someone has sinned, he has fallen short and is condemned (separated from God). So thats me, you and everyone else.

Jesus took the condemnation on Himself, he was separated from God and He died. Then he was resurrected (God has power) so now there is no condemnation for us. Jesus paid the price and when we are judged, God does not see our sin because Jesus covered it.

Jesus death and separation from God was definitely a big deal. Can you imagine being separated from God? NONE of us on earth are separated from God. That separation only comes at the judgment if someone rejects Jesus blood (in other words someone doesn't let Jesus pay for their sin).

The physical part of his death was horrible but that wasn't the worst. He basically endured "hell". Hell is separation from God.

[Mig el Pig]

Well as I posted in another thread:

God judges people according to one thing. If someone has sinned, he has fallen short and is condemned (separated from God). So thats me, you and everyone else.

Jesus took the condemnation on Himself, he was separated from God and He died. Then he was resurrected (God has power) so now there is no condemnation for us. Jesus paid the price and when we are judged, God does not see our sin because Jesus covered it.

Jesus death and separation from God was definitely a big deal. Can you imagine being separated from God? NONE of us on earth are separated from God. That separation only comes at the judgment if someone rejects Jesus blood (in other words someone doesn't let Jesus pay for their sin).

The physical part of his death was horrible but that wasn't the worst. He basically endured "hell". Hell is separation from God.

So he didn't give up anything.

Jesus wasn't the first to promise a few things in the afterlife and he promised nothing new.

[therussian]

The sun. God is the actual Sun. Jesus is the light that radiates from it, while the Holy Spirit is the heat.


That's how I've heard it said before

[Zenith Darksea]

This seems to be something that Muslims have difficulty understanding, the fact that there is one God in three Persons, and so often come to the (absolutely incorrect) conclusion that Christians believe in three Gods. But this isn't true, because all Christians worship one single God. However, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all this one God. They all share the same divine essence and are all worshipped as one - explaining how it actually works in detail is impossible because this is, of course, a divine Mystery. Mystery is not a concept unknown to Muslims I hope, so that they will understand the fact that it is difficult for man to actually conceive of God's essence and energies.

[AngryTitusPullo]

This seems to be something that Muslims have difficulty understanding, the fact that there is one God in three Persons, and so often come to the (absolutely incorrect) conclusion that Christians believe in three Gods. But this isn't true, because all Christians worship one single God. However, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all this one God. They all share the same divine essence and are all worshipped as one - explaining how it actually works in detail is impossible because this is, of course, a divine Mystery. Mystery is not a concept unknown to Muslims I hope, so that they will understand the fact that it is difficult for man to actually conceive of God's essence and energies.

Muslims have simpler understanding I think.

Say: He is God, the One! God, the eternally Besought of all! He begetteth not nor was begotten. And there is none comparable unto Him.

Now, keeping in mind this concept of God, look closely at this vast universe. Exert yourself to the utmost and say if you find among all the objects that you see, among all the things that you perceive, among all that you can think, feel or imagine - all that your knowledge can comprehend - anyone possessing these attributes. The sun, the moon, the stars, animals, birds or fishes, matter, money, any man or a group of men - does any of them possess these attributes? Most certainly not! For everything in the universe is created, controlled and regulated, is dependent on others, is mortal and transitory; its slightest movements are controlled by an inexorable law from which there can be no deviation. Their helpless condition proves that the attire of divinity cannot fit their body. They do not possess the slightest trace of divinity and have absolutely nothing to do with it. It is a travesty of truth and a folly of the highest magnitude to attribute divine status to them.

We have found that divinity is not vested in any material or human element of the universe, and that none of them possesses even the slightest trace of it. This leads us to the conclusion that there is a Supreme Being, over and above all that our eyes see in the universe, Who possesses Divine attributes, Who is the Will behind all phenomena, the Creator of this grand universe, the Controller of its superb Law, the Governor of its serene rhythm, the Administrator of all its workings: He is God, the Lord of the Universe and no one and nothing is associated in His Divinity.

This knowledge is superior to all other kinds of knowledge and the greater you exert yourself, the deeper will be your conviction that this is the starting-point of all knowledge. In every field of inquiry - be it that of physics, chemistry, astronomy, geology, biology, zoology, economics, politics, sociology or the humanities, you will find that the deeper you probe, the clearer become the indications of the truth of La ilaha illallah. It is this concept which opens up the doors of inquiry and investigation and illumines the pathways of knowledge with the light of reality. And if you deny or disregard this reality, you will find that at every step you meet disillusionment, for the denial of this primary truth robs everything in the universe of its meaning and significance.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...d/mautaw1.html

As to the question of what did Jesus really give up for us, I believe of what has been told to me by the Qur'an.

"When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: 'Now I have come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which you dispute. Therefore, fear God and obey me. God, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him -- this is a Straight Way.' But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement. So woe to the wrongdoers, from the penalty of a Grievous Day!" (43:63-65)

"He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet; He has made me blessed wheresoever I be; and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the son of Mary. It is a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is" (19:30-35).

"Behold! the angels said, 'Oh Mary! God gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him. His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter, and in (the company of) those nearest to God. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. He shall be (in the company) of the righteous... And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel'" (3:45-48).

[wolveraptor]

If God is immortal and omnipotent, what are 3 days of suffering in hell to him? I think I'd be more impressed if he spent an eternity in hell, just so he knows exactly what he's putting the condemned through. But of course, he's supposed to be omniscient (though I've never found concrete Biblical backing for that), so he'd know anyways.

[Kennylz]

I've seen people sacrifice their lives willingly for a handful of others, without having to claim themselves dieties, or making a big show of it. They came to a conclusion that their life was worth less then the people in danger.

Christ got crucified, but people get tortured and killed similarly or -worse- all throughout history for trying to do the right thing. This is also in time where we have much easier lives. Back then, you could of got crucified for anything, so if you put it into context, the whole 'sacrifice' thing is a bit farce..

I'd never tell someone their religion was stupid though, just adding my two cents on the topic.

[Axe-Battler]

The sun. God is the actual Sun

No you're actually correct about that dude.

The Bible is 100% false and has no historical truth to it.

Forget the divinci code because that was just made for dan brown to become a wealthy man...

Jesus, mother mary, peter the "saint", all of the apostles, king david, king harod, abraham, king solomon, etc, etc.................. etc.....

They were all, ALL made up characters, historians even say and people that have researched the actual historical reference of these people including jesus, they found that in over 30,000 historical articles about their time periods, for each character in the bible, NONE, NONE of them were mentioned to have even existed.

And as far as Moses goes, historians actually recently found out that he WAS the Pharoah of Egypt, and he was not the pharoah's adopted son, he literally was the pharoah.

What happened, was that he wanted to take away the power of the egyptian priests by saying "there's only one god...the Sun god"

because egypt's high priests all represented a different egyptian god, and held great political power, including sharing power with the pharoah, and moses wanted to take that away from them...

They drove Moses out, thus (exodus in the bible), because they didn't want to lose their powers in politics, and Moses then took with him the people that sided with him, (incorrectly shown as the jews in exodus),

thus he started a religion that was actually a very good one, the god in this religion of theirs, was ultiamte, and was said to be "everywhere", it indeed was the Sun god of the Egyptians, and the Sun is everywhere on the Earth, go figure to this day we say "God is everywhere".

What happened then, was the babylonians took the hebrew into captivity, (even mentioned in the bible), and when the egyptians finally went back to israel, they took with them a strange new god called "Jehova", mhm, you can figure out what happens next...

They combined the god jehove, with the Sun god of theirs, now called "Yahweih"(sorry if I mispelled), and it created a deulistic god, a two sided god...

One side of god was very gentle, loving, and forgiving, (Yahweih), while the other was hateful, vengeful, bitter, and all punishing (Jehova).

Thus in the bible read the old testament and you'll see that one second god is saying "I will bring peace", the next "I will cause a plague to wipe these people out".

[Anarius]

And as far as Moses goes, historians actually recently found out that he WAS the Pharoah of Egypt, and he was not the pharoah's adopted son, he literally was the pharoah.

What happened, was that he wanted to take away the power of the egyptian priests by saying "there's only one god...the Sun god"

Wan't that Akhenaten?
I'm pretty sure he stayed in Egypt untill his death..