Getting hoplites to phalanx again

[Graal Knight]

Have just been trying to figure out how to get hoplites to phalanx like they used to in RTW, in that, they are able to use the special ability (F key) to change between phalanx and non-phalanx.

I have figured out that adding the command "phalanx" onto the end of the units formation entry in the export_descr_unit file will give you the option to use the phalanx as a special ability, but when you deselect this ability in-game they do not hold their spears upright as they used to, but revert to what I guess you would describe as a "semi-phalanx"?

An help on how to mod this correctly so that units phalanx as they used to in RTW would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

[jaklei]

... You must redo all the animations and many noneditable files.

[Graal Knight]

Bugger

[Quinn Inuit]

Yeah, the hoplites were extensively edited to put them into the shield wall formation, instead of phalanx.

[Graal Knight]

No easy way to revert it back to how it used to be then?

[Turk]

You have to delete short_pike i think in the edu file

the only weapon in the line must be spear

Thats all

And then they use the old good phalanx from vanilla rtw
but not really accurate
Hope that helps

[Graal Knight]

You have to delete short_pike i think in the edu file

the only weapon in the line must be spear

Thats all

And then they use the old good phalanx from vanilla rtw
but not really accurate
Hope that helps

Many thanks Turk, I will give it a try....

...but, not really accurate?

Perhaps i'm just an old fashioned phalangite, but why not?

[Quinn Inuit]

??? I thought all the hoplites had a short_pike phalanx originally.

It's easy to make them use phalanx again, but not so easy to make them hold the spears properly. Although...maybe if you just changed their animation...try changing the spear animation used by the hoplites to the one used by the Pontic Nobles.

[Turk]

Nope
My method is following:
Edu:delete in weapons everything except spear
give them phalanx ability back
and voila your phalanx

Animation is following:
fs_spearmen, fs_swordsmen

If you have that
and your problem isnt solved
then its a bug
give us more details or screenshoot pls

[Turk]

forgot to put the word:
not really Historical accurate

[Graal Knight]

forgot to put the word:
not really Historical accurate

I thought that's what you meant, was just wondering in what manner is it not historically accurate?

[Morte]

I thought that's what you meant, was just wondering in what manner is it not historically accurate?

As best I understand it (I am not much of a historian)...

First a "hoplite" is a soldier with a hoplon (big round shield), it does not imply anything about formations. You could in theory have "hoplites" with swords or axes or even slings. Not all hoplites fought in phalanxes, and not all phalanxes were hoplites.

Greek city state hoplites used phalanxes in the early days. That was when there were few/no cavalry or peltasts etc, and tactics were so simple that some cities selected their general by drawing lots amongst the citizens before each battle. But that was hundreds of years before RTW. As warfare grew more complex hoplites had to charge peltasts or reform quickly to meet cavalry etc, so they used much lighter armour (linen instead of bronze) and more flexible formations.

Then Philip of Macedon developed pike phalanx tactics (continuing experiments by an Athenian general I think). In those the phalanxes got very heavy and even less maneouvrable than the original phalanxes from centuries earlier. But they relied on cooperation with other units (cavalry, skirmishers, and later on Alexander's "hinge" troops) to make the army as a whole flexible enough.

A phalanx on it's own is easy meat for more flexible troops. The Greek cities handled that by dropping the phalanx. The early Macedonians handled it by sophisitcated cooperation of inflexible phalanxes with flexible cavalry etc. And AFAIR when the successor Macedonians cut their cavalry budget and relied on the pike phalanx alone, a more flexible army (Rome) conquered them.

[A thousand years from now, historical wargamers playing USA: Total War will ask "can a level 3 barracks retrain pistoned engined aircraft or does it just do muskets and cavalry", assuming that 1950 = 1850. ]

[Graal Knight]

Ok,

Have got it working so that the animation's have been displaying how I want them, but have been looking around at some of the other entries for spearmen in the EDU and noticed most if not all the units that were already set to phalanx have a spear bonus and another weapon listed?

For example -

type egyptian agema
dictionary rtr_egyptian_elite_guards
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier egyptian_agema, 40, 0, 1
attributes sea_faring,hide_forest,command,can_sap,hardy
formation 0.9, 1, 2, 2, 6,square,phalanx
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 10, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 , 0.4
stat_pri_attr spear,long_pike,spear_bonus_8
stat_sec 8, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 0 , 0.3
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 3, 19, 6, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground -8, 0, -16, 0
stat_mental 17, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 0
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 2, 1171, 559, 104, 112, 700
ownership egypt

Is there something similar I need to be adding to the hoplites weapon stats in order to get the unit to perform properly?

Am new to doing any modding at all to this game so bear with me.

[Turk]

Is there something similar I need to be adding to the hoplites weapon stats in order to get the unit to perform properly?

Am new to doing any modding at all to this game so bear with me.

no in the line there has only to stand spear nothing else

[Graal Knight]

It works like that but if you fight in non-phalanx mode it almost appears as if they are bashing the enemy with their fists, while they happen to hold a spear upright, as they have no secondary weapon from what I have gathered. In vanilla they use a sword when not in phalanx mode.

I think I will go back to how it was all originally set up in RTR. I have just now been playing as greece and using hoplites with an added phalanx command but did not remove the other options in the weapons entry in EDU.

As a result they fight as they normally would in RTR but you have the option of putting them into a somewhat semi-phalanx, in that they go from the shield type wall into phalanx formation.

I'm not quite sure what effect this has on their performance if anything, but it looks cool Not so much of a phalanx but more of a formation looking like it's bracing for an impact.

Anyway, as I said I think I will start over using RTR how it originally was and use Macedon or the Ptolemic Empire to get my phalangite fix.

[Graal Knight]

Thanks for the information.

If that's the case, what is the main difference between the phalanx and the shield wall as it is represented by the hoplites in RTR?

Does it all come down to differing flexibility due to varying spear sizes or the formations themself?

[Morte]

Thanks for the information.

If that's the case, what is the main difference between the phalanx and the shield wall as it is represented by the hoplites in RTR?

Does it all come down to differing flexibility due to varying spear sizes or the formations themself?

I'm afraid I don't know. I've been wondering about that myself. I always thought of the shield wall as a late Roman or medieval thing -- I expect to see Franks behind shield walls, not hoplites. But I really don't know much about this.

Maybe it has a combat effect that's appropriate to successor era hoplites, if not the animation/formation.

[Turk]

I am not sure what your question was but here the answer of that waht i understand:
1.if you want to add a sword,then go to the EDU file
Copy the simple piercing sword of an phalangite unit to the secondary weapon line of the hoplites
2.go to the desc_model battle file in the data folder
look in it at the hoplite
there you will find a line called skeleton
Be sure that following there stands:
fs_spearman, fs_swordsman

Then i am sure that thhis works becauase the hoplites are fighting with the standard phalanx and with the sword as secondary weapon

[Graal Knight]

Just as an extra question regarding this topic, i'm thinking of modding all hoplites to use the phalanx without modding any of the other weapons stats or adding any extra weapons such as a sword etc.

As mentioned above when you add the phalanx command into the EDU without changing anything else, they form into a kind of mini-phalanx when you press the F key.

I'm just wondering what effect this has on the way they fight, if anything?
They have no spear bonus and they of course will not charge or run in this formation, but that aside how would this formation affect their performance?