How good the religions have been for humanity?

[Soul Reaver]

How good you think that the religions and even the notion of religion have been for humanity?
If you will like post your opinions in this thread about religions . . . indifferently about what religion.

My own personal opinion even if maybe most insulting for many is that religions have never been truly for any good.
The idea of religion maybe have been born from the weakens of humans to accept death and the fact that in true they are all alone.
Humans are a species that live in a social hierarchy much the same as wolves . . . and maybe we just feel the need of a leader of the pack all the time, a master to lead and protect the pack. . . and what is any God if not the ultimate master?

Yet with the small comfort brought by religion had come all the hatred and religious wars, all the intolerance and a border that should have not been between humans have come to be!

Because all religions indifferently how tolerable or intolerable are they command people how to thing, what to think and what not, what to feel and what to do. And most than all what is good and what is evil!

Such a thing I believe to be a slavery worse than the slavery of chains . . . a slavery of the mind and soul.

A slavery that it is so easy exploited by the leaders for they own agenda. What kind of people is easier to manipulate than “a true believer” . . . a fanatic? Even a fool will not be so easy to be maneuvered as a pawn!

Then why not to be free . . . to think and feel what and how you like?

But what about good . . . but what about evil?

About the good and evil, nature don’t have such strange notion . . . if we look at nature we see that we live in a world so voracious and unmerciful that such abstract ideas seem only a illusion . . . yet we are humans and we believe to be superior to animals. Why could we nod decide each of us what is good and wrong for ourselves?

I read in some book once that the single one that could tell what is good and evil in the actions of somebody is the one that suffer the consequences of that actions.
Is really need of some mumbo jumbo god to tell us some big theory when all that is enough?

What about life after death?

Why life after death is something religious? Why if it is something pure scientifically?
For myself I think that into the begging the energy had become matter {big bang} then mater had become life {evolution} but then what is life if not energy? And energy never “die” . . . she is only changing.
Maybe that life had generated soul . . . an energetically entity that survives after the death of the body. But that is only natural and have nothing to do with any religion.

Then for what good are religions in the end?
Only to enslave our minds and souls? To teach us hatred and intolerance and blind us?

[boofhead]

If religious morality had not tempered the soul of man for hundreds of thousands of years, I daresay we would be extinct long ago, and if not, we would be a bunch of murdering, self-righteous :wub:s (moreso than we are now ).

[Mig el Pig]

If religious morality had not tempered the soul of man for hundreds of thousands of years, I daresay we would be extinct long ago, and if not, we would be a bunch of murdering, self-righteous :wub:s (moreso than we are now ).

you mean like the Xhosa, they wiped themselves out because they BELIEVED.

I'm an atheist but I haven't commited a murder yet, I can be an ******* though, and sometimes a pussy in a dangerous situation.

[Zenith Darksea]

Oh, it's this again. Well, here we go, I suppose.

Yet with the small comfort brought by religion had come all the hatred and religious wars, all the intolerance and a border that should have not been between humans have come to be!

See my post here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...55&postcount=9

In a short summary:

1. Religions haven't been the cause of wars or intolerance, merely the justification.
2. Likewise, atheism, socialism, capitalism, democracy etc. have all been used as justification for wars.

More fundamentally, politics and economics have been the prime reasons for conflict. Would you abolish them?

Because all religions indifferently how tolerable or intolerable are they command people how to thing, what to think and what not, what to feel and what to do. And most than all what is good and what is evil!

Firstly, I'd point out that most mainstream religions don't force people to do anything. Certainly Christianity does not compel people to believe in God. If you do believe in God however, it's only natural that you'd follow God's precepts. Allow me to explain.

Imagine that there is no God. What is right and wrong? Like you say, it is what you think it is. But someone else may have a different opinion. I for example believe that it is right to treat all races equally, whereas a member of the Ku Klux Klan believed that it was right to treat races differently. I think that it is wrong to commit genocide, yet Hitler and Stalin were perfectly happy to do so. Who is right?

Now imagine that somebody is about to rob you. You've just been stopped in the street by a mugger who is about to beat you up and take your wallet. You probably don't want him to do this, and moreover you would probably agree that mugging is wrong. But what if the mugger says, "It's alright, I believe that mugging is right and proper." Do you then say, "Well, you've exercised your freedom of thought, so obviously I can't stop you now" ? I suspect that you wouldn't. The trap that you fall into is called moral relativism. If there is no ultimate foundation for morality, then there can be no morality.

Is really need of some mumbo jumbo god to tell us some big theory when all that is enough?

'Big theory'? Actually, it's not all that big at all. It's extremely simple. But I suspect that theology would be wasted on you right now.

The main point however is that, if God exists, then clearly you have to put morality into its proper context. If God does not exist, then there is no such thing as morality. Who wrote that book? Why was he right about morality? Who gave him the authority?

Why life after death is something religious? Why if it is something pure scientifically?
For myself I think that into the begging the energy had become matter {big bang} then mater had become life {evolution} but then what is life if not energy? And energy never “die” . . . she is only changing.
Maybe that life had generated soul . . . an energetically entity that survives after the death of the body. But that is only natural and have nothing to do with any religion.

This is nothing but pseudo-science and pseudo-theology, so I won't bother to go into it.

Only to enslave our minds and souls? To teach us hatred and intolerance and blind us?

No, religion liberates our minds from their worldly enslavement and teaches us to value what is most precious of all - life.

[Soul Reaver]

Oh, it's this again. Well, here we go, I suppose.



See my post here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...55&postcount=9

In a short summary:

1. Religions haven't been the cause of wars or intolerance, merely the justification.
2. Likewise, atheism, socialism, capitalism, democracy etc. have all been used as justification for wars.

More fundamentally, politics and economics have been the prime reasons for conflict. Would you abolish them?



Firstly, I'd point out that most mainstream religions don't force people to do anything. Certainly Christianity does not compel people to believe in God. If you do believe in God however, it's only natural that you'd follow God's precepts. Allow me to explain.

Imagine that there is no God. What is right and wrong? Like you say, it is what you think it is. But someone else may have a different opinion. I for example believe that it is right to treat all races equally, whereas a member of the Ku Klux Klan believed that it was right to treat races differently. I think that it is wrong to commit genocide, yet Hitler and Stalin were perfectly happy to do so. Who is right?

Now imagine that somebody is about to rob you. You've just been stopped in the street by a mugger who is about to beat you up and take your wallet. You probably don't want him to do this, and moreover you would probably agree that mugging is wrong. But what if the mugger says, "It's alright, I believe that mugging is right and proper." Do you then say, "Well, you've exercised your freedom of thought, so obviously I can't stop you now" ? I suspect that you wouldn't. The trap that you fall into is called moral relativism. If there is no ultimate foundation for morality, then there can be no morality.



'Big theory'? Actually, it's not all that big at all. It's extremely simple. But I suspect that theology would be wasted on you right now.

The main point however is that, if God exists, then clearly you have to put morality into its proper context. If God does not exist, then there is no such thing as morality. Who wrote that book? Why was he right about morality? Who gave him the authority?



This is nothing but pseudo-science and pseudo-theology, so I won't bother to go into it.



No, religion liberates our minds from their worldly enslavement and teaches us to value what is most precious of all - life.

Well . . . you realy seem to denaturate what I told about good and evil and come now with a a big speach about how people have diferent opinion about what is good and evil.

But did I have not told in my post:

I read in some book once that the single one that could tell what is good and evil in the actions of somebody is the one that suffer the consequences of that actions.
Is really need of some mumbo jumbo god to tell us some big theory when all that is enough?

And "No, religion liberates our minds from their worldly enslavement and teaches us to value what is most precious of all - life." that sounds quite stupid it is not?

How the Aztec religion was teaching the value of life? By few thousand regulary human sacrifices?
How the Cristianity is teaching the value of life when Jesus said only that he come to complete the old law but not change it . . . and the old law is teling how one should not tolerate foreigners in his town, how the heretics and unbelievers should be kiled? Or that it is my favorite . . . it is not saying the Bible that if a woman is raped in town she should be kiled as she had not screamed after help? If you read "THE FULL BIBLE" you find these most pro life and tolerance teachings. In true if you do so and study the Bible . . . then you will see that the inquizition was only in agrement with the teachings from Bible.
How is then Islam for life when he preach the war against the unbelievers?
The Buddhism is maybe the only true good and noble religion . . . that I must admit . . . but is like you want to make from wolves, sheeps.
How the Assyrian religion was so much for life when even gods of evil were divinized? It was not Babylon having a wall permanently covered with human skins?
How was the celtic religion so much loving life when it was forbiten by the Romans because of the human sacrifices?
How was the Chartagian religion so good when it was requiring the sacrifices of the lives of countless childs to the Baal god?

The cruciads . . . the otoman jihad in Europe? These seem not to have been so much apreciating life.

And it is life truly the most precious thing in life?

What is life without freedom and love?

I will say that in the same way how one could not live without brain and lungs but having hearth. In the same way the most precious of all and vital elements are LIFE, LOVE and FREEDOM

[boofhead]

Or that it is my favorite . . . it is not saying the Bible that if a woman is raped in town she should be kiled as she had not screamed after help?

Wrong and evil and wicked. Imagine if their own mum was raped?

[Yosemite]

The cruciads . . . the otoman jihad in Europe? These seem not to have been so much apreciating life.

And it is life truly the most precious thing in life?

The romans back then? The greeks, the persians, Napoleon? They did it for God? Why the ottomans would have automatically have done jihads on europe?

[SovietDoom]

The romans back then? The greeks, the persians, Napoleon? They did it for God? Why the ottomans would have automatically have done jihads on europe?

The Ottoman jihad never really existed, but the initial Arab conquest of the Middle East was a Jihad.

[Mathias]

I read in some book once that the single one that could tell what is good and evil in the actions of somebody is the one that suffer the consequences of that actions.
Is really need of some mumbo jumbo god to tell us some big theory when all that is enough?

The murdered man cannot complain.

[Soul Reaver]

The murdered man cannot complain.

So, the religion is to make us good?

Then let’s speak about the goodness of bible, no need to trust me on my word open then Bible for first and read these:

1 Samuel 15:11-18 God repents of having made Saul king since Saul refused to carry out God’s commandments (i.e., Saul refused to murder all the innocent women and children.) At least god realizes what an immoral, murderous pig he is on this one.
1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless "suckling" infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.
1 Samuel 18:25-27, David generously gives Saul the foreskins of the 200 men he killed for Saul's daughter, when all Saul asked for was 100.
2 Kings, King Menahem kills all the pregnant women in Tizzah "because they opened not to him."
2 Kings 15:16 God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be “ripped open”. And the Christians have the audacity to say god is pro-life. How and the hell is it that Christians can read passages where God allows pregnant women to be murdered, yet still claim abortion is wrong?
2 Kings 2:23-24 The prophet Elisha, was being picked on by some young boys from the city because of his bald head. The prophet turned around and cursed them in the Lords name. Then, two female bears came out of the woods and killed forty-two of them. You would think that God could understand that sometimes the youthful make childish jokes. Calling someone “bald head” is far from being worthy of death.
2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”
2 Kings 9:33-37, God has a woman thrown off a wall, trampled by horses and eaten by dogs.
2 Samuel, God becomes angry with David, and has David's wives publicly raped by David's son Absalom. God later has David's other son rape David's daughter.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 states that if a father cannot prove his daughter's virginity before she gets married, his daughter is to be stoned to death.
Deuteronomy 22:23-24 states that if a betrothed woman is raped and doesn't scream loud enough, she is to be executed. But according to 22:28-29, the man who commits a rape could simply pay a fee and marry the victim.
Exodus 12:29 God killed, intentionally, every first-born child of every family in Egypt, simply because he was upset at the Pharaoh. And god caused the Pharaoh’s actions in the first place. Since when is it appropriate to murder children for their ruler’s forced action?
Exodus 20:9-10 God commands death for cursing out ones parents Joshua 8 God commanded the deaths of 12,000 men, women, and children of Ai. They were all slain in the ambush that was planned by god.
Exodus 21:7, there are actually regulations for selling one's daughter
Ezekiel 24:15-18, God kills Ezekiel's wife and tells Ezekiel to forget about her.
Genesis 19:8, Lot offers up his two virgin daughters to be raped by the mob who wanted to sodomize his houseguests. In a touch of irony, Lot's daughters later get their father drunk and rape him.
Genesis 22:9 & 10 “And they came to the place which God had told him of and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.” It matters not that god let Abraham get out of murdering Isaac. To put a knife up to your son’s throat is child abuse.
Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.
Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God’s intervention. “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.” Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children. God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry. Is not terminating a pregnancy unnaturally “abortion”?
I Kings 16:34 Laying the foundation for a city using your firstborn child and using your youngest son to set up the gates.
I Kings 3:24-25 “And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king. And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other." This test was of course given to see who the real mother of the child was. Christians view this king as a wise man. I look upon his suggestion with far more revulsion then I give accredit to Susan Smith.
Isaiah 13:15-18 If God can find you, he will “thrust you through,” smash your children “to pieces” before your eyes, and rape your wife.
Jeremiah 11:22-23 God will kill the young men in war and starve their children to death.
Jeremiah 19:7-9 God will make parents eat their own children, and friends eat each other.
Judges 1:12-13, Caleb is willing to give his daughter to anyone who conquers Debir. Caleb's nephew accomplished the feat, and received his own cousin as a prize.
Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.
Judges 19:24-29 “Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light. And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place. And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.” To put it very bluntly this poor, young lady was murdered by her mate for being raped.
Lamentations 2:20-22 God gets angry and mercilessly torments and kills everyone, young and old. He even causes women to eat their children.
Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”
Leviticus 26:30 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.”
Mark 7:9 Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law.
Matthew 19:29 If you really loved Jesus then he insists that you abandon your wife and children for him. Only that way will he allow you to go to heaven. (That is if you meet his other hefty requirements, don’t slip through the loopholes, and ignore the contradictions.)
Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.
Numbers 31:18, Moses instructs his army that they can keep female virgin prisoners for themselves.
Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. This is considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man’s child.
Proverbs 13:24, 19:18, 22:15, 23:13-14 & 29:15 God commands repeatedly that you beat your children.
Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.
Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”
Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.



One of my most favorites is this one: {by the way . . . is in the New Testament . . . so no escuse with the old law}

Romans 13:1-73
(1) Let every person be subject to the governing authorities (exousiais hyperechousasis); for there is no authority (exousia) except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted (tass?) by God. (2) Therefore, whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. (3) For rulers (archontes) are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive its approval; (4) for it is God’s servant for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid, for the authority does not bear the sword in vain! It is the servant of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer. {92} (5) Therefore one must be subject, not only because of wrath but because of conscience. (6) For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, busy with this very thing. (7) Pay to all what is due them—taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

Clearly it is the job of Christians to obey the laws, and if the laws of somebody country clearly state that abortion is legal. So too should Christians respect and honor that law. God commands them to NOT disobey, which entails attempting to get the law overturned. If god wanted abortion to be illegal he wouldn’t have appointed authorities to make it legal.
Clearly all those revolutionaries that have fought for freedom and civil rights against the nobles in history have most displeased God! How do they dared to say that slavery is wrong or that people should be equal . . . when the authorities from God said otherwise? That it is sacrilege . . . against god word itself!

I have only touched upon a fraction of the hundreds of cruelties that fill the Bible. Clearly, the areas of the world where religion is weakest, are the areas of the world where women are best treated and also are the most advanced countryes.

[Mathias]

So, the religion is to make us good?

No, but your way of telling what is good and what is bad is flawed.

[Soul Reaver]

Well Mathias . . . my mistake in my own words. Indeed the dead ones could not complain. In better words maybe I will tell that if you do something to somebody and that somebody things that what you do to him is bad. . . then your actions are bad. It is not about any complaining. If you have a conscience, you should think: "How does affect my actions?"
If not . . . well, then with any religion or not . . . nothing will stop you from doing horrors if you truly want to do them, only that you could not justify those horrors anymore with religion!

[boofhead]

A bit of a rant there Soul Reaver...and yeah 99% of that was Old Testament.

The NT bit you bought up basically states "obey the law of the country you live in."

BTW abortion is a horrid act to me, and not becasue of any law made by man.

[removeduser_426582376423734]

A bit of a rant there Soul Reaver...and yeah 99% of that was Old Testament.

The NT bit you bought up basically states "obey the law of the country you live in."

BTW abortion is a horrid act to me, and not becasue of any law made by man.

Ah, I forgot the OT isn't in the Bible.

Wait a second...

[NaptownKnight]

The notion that religion does not serve good is laughable. You atheists are running out of ways to insult us aren't you?

[Admiral Nelson]

The notion that religion does not serve good is laughable. You atheists are running out of ways to insult us aren't you?

Quite the contrary.

See this quote:

If religious morality had not tempered the soul of man for hundreds of thousands of years, I daresay we would be extinct long ago, and if not, we would be a bunch of murdering, self-righteous :wub:s (moreso than we are now ).

This passsage insinuates that with the absence of religion to dictate what is right and wrong, humanity will default to "murdering, self-righteous :wub:s".

That is pretty offensive to any atheist, whom I can say with extreme certainty have morals just as "advanced" as yourself.



Atheism is not at all about "insulting" you and your religion, rather just promoting a healthy amount of skepticism about supernatural beings, and showing reasonable scientific alternatives.

[NaptownKnight]

Quite the contrary.

See this quote:



This passsage insinuates that with the absence of religion to dictate what is right and wrong, humanity will default to "murdering, self-righteous :wub:s".

That is pretty offensive to any atheist, whom I can say with extreme certainty have morals just as "advanced" as yourself.



Atheism is not at all about "insulting" you and your religion, rather just promoting a healthy amount of skepticism about supernatural beings, and showing reasonable scientific alternatives.

Whether you mean it or not, by proclaiming there is no God an what not is offensive to Theists, or at least me. Then again you have you're rights to proclaim it and believe what you want, but I take it to offense when someone says there is no God.

[removeduser_426582376423734]

Whether you mean it or not, by proclaiming there is no God an what not is offensive to Theists, or at least me. Then again you have you're rights to proclaim it and believe what you want, but I take it to offense when someone says there is no God.

So, I guess we should agree with you, right? So as not to cause offence.

[SovietDoom]

Whether you mean it or not, by proclaiming there is no God an what not is offensive to Theists, or at least me. Then again you have you're rights to proclaim it and believe what you want, but I take it to offense when someone says there is no God.

I take offense when you have to be so wrapped up in your faith that you have to bring this to an "Us vs. Them" argument.

Also: Comparing atheists to the very Christian based KKK is pretty lame, too.

[NaptownKnight]

I did not say anything like that. Black people and Jews are offended by the KKK but can do nothing to stop them. Keep on preaching your atheism, it's you're right.