The Cimbri

[cherryfunk]

This thread will serve as a central location for all information regarding our Germanic faction, now called 'The Cimbri.' This faction, like the Boii, will represent a confederation of tribes; the Cimbri and the Teutones will be the main tribes we should take inspiration from, but since this faction represents the entire German nation, any valid Germanic tribe might give us good ideas to consider.

General overview from wikipedia:

The Cimbri were a Germanic-cross-Celtic tribe who together with the Teutons and the Ambrones threatened the Roman Republic in the late 2nd century BC. According to Pliny the Elder they originated in Jutland....

Some time before 100 BC many of the Cimbri, as well as the Teutones and Ambrones migrated south-east. After several battles with the Boii and other Celtic tribes, they appeared ca 113 BC in Noricum, where they invaded the lands of one of Rome's allies, the Taurisci. At this time, if not before, they had picked up substantial Celtic elements, as allies and the majority of the migrating Cimbri may have been Gauls. Similarly, there is no consensus on the ethnic composition of the Ambrones, while the Teutons are usually taken to have been a Germanic or Proto-Germanic tribe.

The Cimbri are depicted as ferocious warriors who did not fear death. The host was followed by women and children on carts. Aged women dressed in white (see Völva) sacrificed the prisoners of war and sprinkled their blood (see Blót), the nature of which allowed them to see what was to come.
Evidence that the Cimbri may have practised ritualistic sacrifice is found in Haraldskær Woman discovered in Jutland in the year 1835. Noosemarks and skin piercing were evident and she had been thrown into a bog rather than buried or cremated.

The Cimbri are depicted as ferocious warriors who did not fear death. The host was followed by women and children on carts. Aged women dressed in white (see Völva) sacrificed the prisoners of war and sprinkled their blood (see Blót), the nature of which allowed them to see what was to come.
Evidence that the Cimbri may have practised ritualistic sacrifice is found in Haraldskær Woman discovered in Jutland in the year 1835. Noosemarks and skin piercing were evident and she had been thrown into a bog rather than buried or cremated.

Wikipedia also has a good over of their conflict vs. Rome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbri

A more detailed look at Cimbri vs. Romans is here: http://www.unrv.com/empire/cimbri-teutons.php

Their homeland:

The original home of the Cimbri has been much disputed. It is recorded in the Monumentum Ancyranum that a Roman fleet sailing eastwards from the mouth of the Rhine (c. A.D. 5) received at the farthest point reached the submission of a people called Cimbri, who sent an embassy to Augustus. Several early writers agree in saying that the Cimbri occupied a peninsula, and in the map of Ptolemy Jutland appears as the Cimbric Chersonese. As Ptolemy seems to have regarded the district north of the Liimfjord (Limfjord) as a group of islands, the territory of the Cimbri, the northernmost tribe of the peninsula, would be included in the modern county (Amt) of Aalborg.

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Cimbri

So little is known about them that we may have to turn to some later tribes, like the Franks and Alemanni, as inspiration for their units and culture.

[cherryfunk]

Some images from the DBA site that might give us ideas for Cimbri units.

'Early German' cavalry:



'Early German' skirmisher:



'Early German' swordsman (an elite unit most likely with that armor):



'Early German' warband, a more typical warrior:



These last two are Franks, from a slightly later period, but they should work for our purposes (we might even call these 'Frankish Whatever', to simulate the various tribes comprising the Cimbri confederation).

Frankish axe-thrower:



Frankish warband:

[Spartan_Shame]

That shield on the cavalry looks great, also on the third pic, but I think more of them would have one like the second dude. Wooden rustic shield.

[cherryfunk]

Here's a fantastic picture of Germans ambushing Varus' legions in the Teutoburg in 9AD. A few things to notice -- their clothing is more drab than the Gauls, since the Germans were a poorer society. Lack of iron means less armor or iron weapons -- notice the guy with the club, I think we should have a low-level infantry armed with clubs. Also, one of the Germans is fighting with a captured gladius -- we might have a Roman-armed Cimbri unit to represent warriors armed from weapons bought from Rome or won in combat (infantry with drab clothing but captured Roman shields and swords, for example). I've read that weapons smuggling into Germany was a huge problem once the Rhine frontier was established.

[dvk901]

Very true....weapons dealers 100BC! Nothing's changed.

[rory o'kane]

i've never heard of the smuggling thing - using the weapons of defeated romans, yes - but that's fascinating - the idea of units of germans with some roman equipment is really quite cool (that would work so much better with a M2TW mod, because of the various models within a unit, and visible upgrades - more blacksmith upgrades, more roman arms and armour!) still, great

[cherryfunk]

From: http://applegate-nation.org/history.html

The Cimbris and their close relatives, the Teutons, first appear in written history in 330 B.C. when the Greek explorer Pytheas of Massilia visited northern Europe (Shetelic and Falk, p. 190.) Cimbri lived in the district of Thy, to the west of Himmerland. Teutons lived to the east of Limfjord on the other side of the fjord and were the Cimbri's closest neighbors. In 114-102 B. C., both tribes migrated southward into Roman territory. The Teutons were defeated by Roman armies early on while the Cimbri went almost to the gates of Rome. Poseidonios, during this time, called the two tribes "Germans" -- the first recorded use of the name.

Roman writers described the Cimbri as hordes of warring men with swords and spears and having animal totems on their helmets. They were accompanied by blond women and children with "hair like old men." Going southeasterly, they beat the Helvetii who retreated into the Alps where they live to this day (the Swiss.) Consul Gneaus suffered a crushing defeat at Carithia by the Cimbri in 113 B.C. Consul Marcus Sillanus suffered the same fate in 109 B.C. Between then and 102 B.C., Legate Marus was beaten, a large army under Consul Geneaus Maximus was destroyed and Proconsul Quintus Caepio and a third army were defeated. Rome could now be conquered by the Cimbri simply appearing at the gates (ibid, p. 116.)

However, the Cimbri continued to move in southern France as their Gods and omens directed. Holy hags used sacrificial blood of prisoners, boiling in silver caldrons, to determine the future. A loose plate, on which the hammered image of the sacred bull appeared, was placed in the bottom of the holy vessel. A prisoner was bent over the vessel and his throat cut. As the blood drained into the vessel, the plate rose due to air trapped in the cavities making up the underside of the image. This air forced the plate to "dance" on the surface of the boiling blood. When the air escaped, the plate sank; therein was the omen. How long did the bull dance, where did he sink, how did he sink -- all were significant (Lauring, p. 116.)

Then omens changed - the Cimbri were directed to invade Italy. They crossed the Alps and, so goes tradition, slid on their shields down snow fields into the Po Valley. They went at once into battle at Vercellae. Alas, their Gods had lied. General Marius defeated them decisively. Roman historians tell how Cimbri women threw themselves upon their menfolk as they retreated and cursed them for cowardice. The women seized their husband's swords and killed first their children and then themselves to avoid the disgrace of defeat and the dangers of slavery. Few Cimbri straggled back to Jutland.

Cimbri fought totally naked. This was both so as to be unimpeded in the fight and also because fighting was a holy sport. Men in sports were always naked. Sporting events and fighting were dedicated to their Gods. Being naked, the Cimbri were closer to -- indeed, became part of -- their Gods. Emotionally, the Cimbri did not care if they lived or died while engaged in holy sport. This mental attitude made them difficult to defeat (ibid., p. 117.)

The great Caesar Augustus, in 5 A.D., mentioned the Cim­bri in an inscription on marble at Ancura. He was recounting a voyage his fleet had taken to the far north. According to the inscription, Cimbri "sent ambassadors to ask for friend­ship with me and the Roman People" (Shetelic & Folk, p. 252.)

Pliny the Elder spent three campaigns in Germany in 57, 50, and 47 A.D. He wrote a 20-volume history of the wars be­tween Germany and Rome. In the history, he wrote "the Cim­brian promontory runs far out into the sea and forms a penin­sula called Tastris" (ibid., p. 253.)

In 60 A.D., Nero sent a fleet to explore the northern seas and seek trade. At the same time, overland routes of trade were established between the Cimbri and Rome. Tacitus, about 100 A.D., mapped northern Europe and, in the northern sea called Germanilo Okeano, clearly showed the Cimbrian pe­ninsula (ibid., p. 252.).

[Drtad]

Wow, good info. Surprised to see that the Cimbri survived after Vercellae. I also didn't know Rome's situation was so desperate before Marius appeared.

[dvk901]

Wow, good info. Surprised to see that the Cimbri survived after Vercellae. I also didn't know Rome's situation was so desperate before Marius appeared.

One of the driving forces behind the reforms....Rome was running out of 'landed' middle-class to fight it's wars.

[cherryfunk]

This link that tone posted has a ton of info:

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=uk

The author makes a strong case that the Cimbri were Celts. I've also read some who theorize that they were the 'Cimmerians' from the Black Sea area who invaded Asia Minor in Biblical times! Good lord, nobody seems to know much about these early races, I'm amazed at how many theories there are floating around.

Anyway, there's solid evidence that the Cimbri either were Celtic, or had taken on aspects of Celtic culture. So tone should be able to use some elements of the Celtic factions in creating Cimbri units. However, we already have three Celtic factions so I'd like the Cimbri to be as unique as possible.

Interesting thing about that long article, apparently Tacitus stated that the tribes who ambushed Varus' legions in Germany were Cimbri -- yet one more case of them defeating a major Roman army, so clearly they should be our German faction -- it's just that they might not actually be German!

[dvk901]

I think we have to consider that although they may have been Celts originally, and migrated as some say from the Cimmerian area....many centuries passed in the mean time. They could well have become 'night and day' different from their ancestors for any number of reasons. And really, is there any people who were originally 'German'....it was a Roman term applied with sparse information, and it could well be that NONE of these people ever came from that area originally.

[cherryfunk]

That's a good point. I had always sort of assumed that the 'Germans' came down from Scandinavia, but that may not be the case at all. I read one theory that the Goths -- certainly one of the great 'Germanic' peoples -- were actually the Getai! Which would explain why they relocated from northern Europe to the Black Sea area -- it would have been a return to their ancestral homelands!

So the more I dig into this, the clearer it becomes that there wasn't really a powerful 'German' race, at least not in the 2nd/3rd centuries BC. What ended up being the Germans may have been a conglomeration of a number of peoples who relocated to northern Europe from elsewhere, mixed in with the native inhabitants.

[dvk901]

It makes you wonder, doesn't it, where the world would be now if it hadn't been for the Huns. For centuries, it would appear that these tribes and Celtic peoples bounced back and forth like billaird balls between the North Sea and Roman borders...until the Huns came and drove them ALL south into the Empire at one time.....a swarm that poor Rome just couldn't handle. For all her Legions, there was just no way to control the pouring influx thru every crack and hole in the borders.

[rory o'kane]

okay - here's something for you to ponder about, DVK - would the fate of the roman empire have changed in any way had the romans either not suffered the varus disaster OR reclaimed germania major under germanicus? what about holding the antonine wall?
what do you reckon the difference for each would have been?

[dvk901]

okay - here's something for you to ponder about, DVK - would the fate of the roman empire have changed in any way had the romans either not suffered the varus disaster OR reclaimed germania major under germanicus? what about holding the antonine wall?
what do you reckon the difference for each would have been?

Personally, I think the Varus disaster in 9AD was perhaps the most serious blow ever dealt to Rome. To understand that, I think it's necessary to understand the Romans themselves, and WHY they were building this Empire. Sure, part of it was seeking wealth and power, but that wasn't all. The Romans were a 'religious' people, and they believed they were also a 'destined' people. Destined to rule the world...not just part of it. Not just the Mediterrainan. Not just the part they knew of, but everything and everywhere they went. They saw themselves as the heirs of Alexander, the inheriters of his Empire, and even way beyond it. But the destruction of those Legions..the fact they never named or mentioned them again, or used their numbers...ever, highly suggests that this incident 'burst their bubble'. Before, they were invincible. Their Legions lost to no one. Their greatest enemies cowered in fear, or were slaves...or were dead! After, I think they were pensive, not less proud or arrogant on the outside, but weary and suspicious on the inside that maybe, just maybe, they weren't invincible after all.

After that disaster, if you'll recall, came the attitude...even the 'official attitude', that the Empire was big enough. Expansion stopped, basically, and then came the walls. Why walls if you're invincible? Why walls if your destiny is to rule and conquer all those outside them? Truly, I think 9AD marks the end of one era in the Roman 'Psyche', and begins another more realistic, hesitant, and dangerous focusing inward.

If this had not happened? Well, it's hard to tell. Eventually it HAD to happen...it always does. But I think the Romans would've kept expanding and conquering until it did happen...who knows how far they would've gone.

Not retaking Germania, really, was a 'product' of this now 'hesitant' attitude....one last failed attempt to prove that their destiny was still there.

As for walls....as soon as they built them, they began their own collapse. The particular incident doesn't matter, it's the 'wall mentality' that does. If you build a wall, it means you're trying to keep something out. Why a wall? Because it's a substitute for power. Their military could no longer do the job, so they built walls. Yet a wall is also a 'seige mentality'...."We're under attack! So let's build a wall".....rather than go and kill the bastards you are trying to keep out, or conquer and enslave them.

Then there's the following false sense of security. "We're safe now because we have walls." You turn inward. You get complacent. Nobody hypes you up with speeches of conquest and glory anymore....both become civil wars and worthless 'glories' over no one but themselves. You get fat and lazy, and you don't want to die for Rome anymore. Life is too good. Why do that? Instead, make all the conquered people defend us. Tax the crap out of them to support our pleasures, and elist them to protect us so we can always have them.

Maybe that's not what you were after, but I really think that destiny and vision were Rome's power. Once they were proved false, or given up...it was over.

[Drtad]

Here is a picture of Marius slaying Boiiorix at the Battle of Bercellae in which the Romans finally beat the Cimbri forces. Might have some good info, but since the picture was painted in the late 18th century...

[cherryfunk]

After that disaster, if you'll recall, came the attitude...even the 'official attitude', that the Empire was big enough. Expansion stopped, basically, and then came the walls. Why walls if you're invincible? Why walls if your destiny is to rule and conquer all those outside them? Truly, I think 9AD marks the end of one era in the Roman 'Psyche', and begins another more realistic, hesitant, and dangerous focusing inward.

I agree that the disaster changed the very pysche of the Roman spirit. They lost their sense of invincibility. And with it, their desire to keep expanding. I think the ironic thing is that they probably COULD have conquered Germany, if they had kept at it -- what were three legions really, in the big picture? They lost 3 times that number at Philippi at no permanent cost to the Roman state, and Hannibal sent perhaps 200,000 Romans to their graves. But after the Teutoberg they lost the desire to conquer Germany, if not the means, and of course it would be the Germans centuries later who would crack the Empire apart like an egg.

It was a pyschological blow, but a permanent one.

[rory o'kane]

booo. but yes, i agree to that. never really examined it like that before, but i sense that you're right there.
the roman empire? big enough? fools

[cherryfunk]

Here's a depiction of a Frankish warrior, I like the leggings. Also note the throwing axe -- we should have an axe-throwing unit if posible.



More Germans. These are Alamanni from the 3rd cent. AD, but hopefully we can get some ideas from them.

The thick cloak and tunic on this guy makes sense given the colder climate. Also note the throwing axe again:



These guys have the distinctive leg straps. Nice shield, and note how even in the 3rd century they have little armor beyond their shield. Captured or smuggled Roman armor might be used in their heavily armored infantry, while their 'lighter' infantry might have little armor as a matter of course:




Now here's some text, contemporary descriptions of the Franks from a Roman historian. Some things to note:

- Mustache but no beards.
- Nobles have bright, colorful clothing (scarlet, gold and white).
- Colors worn by the elite warriors are green with crimson borders.
- Swords worn suspended from the shoulder instead of the waist (large swords?)
- Javelins ('barbed lances') and throwing axes.
- Shields have gleaming 'golden central bosses'
- Note the discussion in the last 2 pages, about how common armor was, implying that it was actually more common than the Romans indicated.

[cherryfunk]

Here's a unit I'd like to give the Cimbri -- Infantry Runners. Infantry trained to run and fight with their cavalry. They would be very fast, tough, lightly-armored, probably using a spear, and effective vs. cavalry. Oh, also note the German rider on the right, I love that striped tunic: