Jihad=Freedom Fight?

[MasterAdnin]

People usually never associate Jihad and Freedom, but I was recently thinking, that does not Jihad represent a last resort to keep you and your family safe?

Think of it like this. Scenario:

You are living in a nation, neither third world, nor first world, but in the middle, I do not know, let's call it a second world country. Well your life style is fair and you have a good job, a good house, a good family, and a great life.

If another nation attacks the one you are currently living in, and is trying to take away your lifestyle, and you become a Jihadist as a last resort, are you not trying to keep your freedoms? Are you not trying to stop your family from oppression? Are you not trying keep your lifestyle as it is?

Many have come to think of Jihad as being an offensive war, when it is in reality, as I described, a last resort, a fight for freedom. So is not a true Jihad a fight to keep you, your family, and your community free?:hmmm:

Salaam and discuss,
Adnan

[Saladin45]

Well, this is the thing. I can see that, I can see the justification in that.

However, I think one thing people tend to forget is that there is more than just Jihad by the sword. There is Jihad by the pen, etc. If you are struggling to defend Islam, even through the very boards we speak on, when we defend our belief, that is technically Jihad. Because you are struggling in defense.

So when you think about it, Jihad is nothing more than a defense. So what's wrong with a defense? I think people are afraid of Jihad because they make the connection with the christian crusade. It is much different and people don't look at history, or even the Quran to see that.

-Saladin

[MasterAdnin]

Well, this is the thing. I can see that, I can see the justification in that.

However, I think one thing people tend to forget is that there is more than just Jihad by the sword. There is Jihad by the pen, etc. If you are struggling to defend Islam, even through the very boards we speak on, when we defend our belief, that is technically Jihad. Because you are struggling in defense.

So when you think about it, Jihad is nothing more than a defense. So what's wrong with a defense? I think people are afraid of Jihad because they make the connection with the christian crusade. It is much different and people don't look at history, or even the Quran to see that.

-Saladin

True bro, but I'm talking about physical Jihad. Obviously one can have a Jihad many different ways, but I'm talking about the above, hence me giving that scenario.

You are absolutely correct, but, as with everything, some people take the concept of Jihad to and extreme and, it could be said, take up the philosophy that the best defence is a good offence, and start to lash out. I have no doubt that the Taliban guys who flew the planes into the two towers thought they were defending islam from American socio-economic imperialism...

You see the problem is that the Taliban were plain wrong. Logic can explain this. the United States was not going to attack them anytime soon, and they had no reason to attack. Not only that, they attacked civilians which is strictly prohibited in Islam, so technically they were offensive and against the rules of war.


Salaam,
Adnan

[Kythras]

Yes, but they thought they were doing the right thing, and that is what matters. There is no good and evil in the world, only differing perspectives

[danzig]

Regardless of any arguments on the "real" meaning of the term Jihad it has been tainted beyond repair just like the word Crusade has.

[Holger Danske]

Regardless of any arguments on the "real" meaning of the term Jihad it has been tainted beyond repair just like the word Crusade has.

Excatly! I don't see why a Jihad (HOLY WAR) should be more "right" than a Crusade. As for the Jihad, I see it as a threat to my way of living, since I know there a hundreds of thousands of fanatic mulims out there that would spare a though of killing me if they had the chance. I live by the concept that if people hates me, then I hate them back. Simple, and it works like a charm, since they will always look bad in that way.
I can only say the same thing about the christian fanatics in the US, who is getting more and more powerful.

[MasterAdnin]

Yes, but they thought they were doing the right thing, and that is what matters. There is no good and evil in the world, only differing perspectives

No, they were following orders of those who are manipulating others to gain political power. They were told their view, and never established their own. They never had their own view on matters.

Salaam,
Adnan

[Kythras]

Then no one ever has any view on anything, people are told what to think by people who have been told what to tihnk by people who have been told what to tihnk, etc. Look at politics, children of right-wingers are more likely to be right-wingers than children of left-wingers. Yes, some people come up with their own view, but for the most part we are told what to think, the real choice is who we listen to. I very much doubt that the terrorists were raised from youth to be little Jihadists (though I'm prepared to be proven wrong), they picked up teachings during thier lives and god roped in my extreme islam.

So yes, whilst the view they held may have been view taken/taught by someone else, but they were still their views...

[LegionnaireX]

Yes, but they thought they were doing the right thing, and that is what matters. There is no good and evil in the world, only differing perspectives

Dangerous mindset there. Thats the time of thing Stalin and Hitler would say to justify killing millions of people. Thats what a serial killer might say too. Moral relativity is bad for society.

I could go to someones house. Say a girls house. I could tie her down, rape her, and cut her throat. But its ok because there is no good or evil in the world and my twisted mind told me my actions were acceptable because the girl deserved it. The only thing that matters is that I thought I was doing the right thing.

That sort of logic could destroy the world. It almost has, multiples times...

[Kythras]

You are absolutely correct, but, as with everything, some people take the concept of Jihad to and extreme and, it could be said, take up the philosophy that the best defence is a good offence, and start to lash out. I have no doubt that the Taliban guys who flew the planes into the two towers thought they were defending islam from American socio-economic imperialism...

[Axe-Battler]

People usually never associate Jihad and Freedom, but I was recently thinking, that does not Jihad represent a last resort to keep you and your family safe?

Think of it like this. Scenario:

You are living in a nation, neither third world, nor first world, but in the middle, I do not know, let's call it a second world country. Well your life style is fair and you have a good job, a good house, a good family, and a great life.

If another nation attacks the one you are currently living in, and is trying to take away your lifestyle, and you become a Jihadist as a last resort, are you not trying to keep your freedoms? Are you not trying to stop your family from oppression? Are you not trying keep your lifestyle as it is?

Many have come to think of Jihad as being an offensive war, when it is in reality, as I described, a last resort, a fight for freedom. So is not a true Jihad a fight to keep you, your family, and your community free?

Salaam and discuss,
Adnan

I'm probably the most open minded person I know, and I've went through theories like mathematics being in nature and you can visualize it, to quantum physics, taosim, quabalism(however it's spelled, )

to illumanati theories and matrix theories...

I used to believe that america (the country i live in) was brainwashing us into thinking terrorists were bad...

no I'm a realist now, still practice the taoist attitude but mostly to become as realistic as possible...

it is true that since the beginning of nations men were brainwashed into thinking they were fighting for a cause, but modern people don't see romans, greeks, crusaders, etc... as heroes do we?

but every nation will see their own as heroes.

What you need to understand about the countries in the mid east, is that they have no education, people are not allowed education, that means they are illiterate, and can't read what the "koran" is actually saying!!!

meaning their political leaders and media can tell them whatever they want...

"Jihad against the west and you'll be taken to paradise", done deal, people will believe it since they are being told it came from their holy book but can't actually read it for themselves.

anyone who speaks out against islam in those countries is executed.

there is no freedom fight, they are brainwashed into that crap since childhood, little children are taught that jews and americans need to be wiped off the face of the earth.

iraq's situation right now is not ever going to come to end until the west(mostly america) attacks iran and takes out their leader(amadenijad)(however you spell it)

Iran has been training iraqi insurgents since we went in there.

and I fear that bush may have no choice but to pull out soon, once we do that, iran and other islamic fascist states will have exactly what they wanted, to humiliate the west.

Bush is trying to antagonize iran into attacking first, he sent two jets over there and dared them to shoot them down, bush said in a speach "I will not leave this iran situation for the next president to deal with"

I hope bush does exactly that and attacks iran, take them out overnight, send about 200000 more men into iraq and end this ****.

And most hate bush, but watch in 100 years bush will be in the top 15 presidents.

Bush Rules!

[jankren]

The problem is everyone has different view of what Jihad is. And everyone claims to be carrying out the 'true Jihad'. So as I said before let's do away with this 'Jihadism'. It's meaning has been twisted too far that it can probably not be fixed again.

[Sadreddine]

No, I don't think the solution is "give away Jihad". I don't care if some mindless fanatics and the interested western media have raped the concept; Jihad is a struggle both internal and external. The majority of muslims consider external Jihad to be justified only in self-defense, and that is the important part. There is nothing terrible about that.

[boofhead]

Why make it religious and use the term "jihad" at all if you are defending your home/country? Call it what you will (resistance, freedom fight, partisanship, defense, war) - whatever. The flaw here is that something quite mundane becomes religious when termed as "jihad".

Should the British and Americans have declared a "Crusade" during WW2, when the vast majority were Xian?

[Sadreddine]

Well first of all, Jihad is translated as "struggle", not Holy War.

Having said that, Jihad have religious connotations because it is prescribed in the Qur'an. In other words, Jihad is religious based when it is justified by the prerequisites prescribed to it in the Qur'an. Otherwise it is a conventional war.

If you attack another country because you are allied with others, at a secular level (whatever your reasons may be), as was the case with the US in WW2, that is not Jihad, but a conventional war.

If you are attacked and oppressed by a foreign force, subjugated by the force of arms, then you have the religious duty to defend yourself, family, properties, and religion. This concept was very important at the initial stages of Islam, when the whole existence of the religion itself was at the blink of destruction.

Jihad is not, as generally thought, a Islamic way of saying "war" with all that implies. You do not say "Jihad" instead of "war". Those are different concepts. Jihad is a special kind of defensive war and not the general concept of war.

[boofhead]

I understand....however that method will always leave muslims who are unjustly invaded being portrayed as religious fundamentalists, at least to the majority of the world - is this wise?

[Stalins Ghost]

I was taught about Jihad as coming in two forms - Lesser and Greater Jihad. Lesser Jihad being the concept of upholding Islamic values in day to day terms, applying the belief to every day issues. Greater Jihad thus being the concept of defending those who attack the faith. Of course... this is all based on stuff I learnt years ago, so it may be a little rusty, and back then we didn't even touch on the various strains of Islam... lol!

In those terms, I do agree with Masteradnin, with Jihad for genuine believers in the faith being defense of their faith against what they see as aggression against an invader.

[Sadreddine]

I was taught about Jihad as coming in two forms - Lesser and Greater Jihad. Lesser Jihad being the concept of upholding Islamic values in day to day terms, applying the belief to every day issues. Greater Jihad thus being the concept of defending those who attack the faith. Of course... this is all based on stuff I learnt years ago, so it may be a little rusty, and back then we didn't even touch on the various strains of Islam... lol!

In those terms, I do agree with Masteradnin, with Jihad for genuine believers in the faith being defense of their faith against what they see as aggression against an invader.

A good approximation, but no so in fact. The Greater and Lesser Jihad are mentioned in the hadith:

When the Muslims returned from battle, the Prophet (s) told them: "You have come from the Lesser Jihad to the Greater Jihad - the striving of a servant (of Allah) against his desires."

Comparing the Lesser Jihad (i.e. overcoming people on the battlefield) to the Greater Jihad (i.e. overcoming one's ownself), the Prophet (s) said: "The strong one is not the one who overcomes people, (but rather) the strong one is he who overcomes his nafs (ego)."

Thus, the greater Jihad is the struggle againt yourself; your ego and desires. The Lesser Jihad, done less regularly (hopefully) is the fight against the oppressors and invaders.

[Stalins Ghost]

A good approximation, but no so in fact. The Greater and Lesser Jihad are mentioned in the hadith:

When the Muslims returned from battle, the Prophet (s) told them: "You have come from the Lesser Jihad to the Greater Jihad - the striving of a servant (of Allah) against his desires."

Comparing the Lesser Jihad (i.e. overcoming people on the battlefield) to the Greater Jihad (i.e. overcoming one's ownself), the Prophet (s) said: "The strong one is not the one who overcomes people, (but rather) the strong one is he who overcomes his nafs (ego)."

Thus, the greater Jihad is the struggle againt yourself; your ego and desires. The Lesser Jihad, done less regularly (hopefully) is the fight against the oppressors and invaders.

Had a feeling I'd got them mixed up there! Thanks

[Sadreddine]

I don't know what others may consider to be "wise". In fact, wisdom is a very difficult concept to reach. If a man full of prejudices against you, most of them born out of sheer ignorance and naiveness, consider you unwise in what you do or think, would you be concerned?