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  1. #1
    NaptownKnight's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Byzantine Overhaul

    I was thinking about getting together a team of people who want to overhaul the Roman unit roster to make it more historically accurate and fun. I am personally not a modder but can help with suggestions and history. This idea came to me when discussing Varangian Gaurd units in another thread, and here are my ideas plus those of dad_savage. We were all saying that the Byzantine faction leader's bodyguard should be elite Varangians, and dad_savage had an idea on how to re-mold the Varangian Guard. Here is a cut out of his post in said thread:

    For starters they could be divided into four types, each one implemented into the game quite easily using existing models.

    Imperial Varangian Guard: as they are in the game. Recruitable only in Constantinople.

    Provincial Varangian Guard: Solid light infantry with a mean attack and high defensive skill, but only a small shield and somewhat light armor. Reskin the chain armored Norse swordsmen model, and give them cloaks. Recruitable from an Imperial Palace in huge cities.

    Say: 15 attack, 18 defence (6 armor, 8 skill, 4 shield) very good morale, fast moving like sword & buckler men.

    Varangian Archers: less range than most archers and crossbowmen (say 80 range) but with a very high attack rating to represent the fact that they're taking picked shots with powerful bows. Twelve would be reasonable. Good mellee stats, as well, with AP hand-axes and a small shield. Reskin the chain-armoured highland noble archers and give them cloaks. Recruitable from an Imperial Palace in huge cities.

    Say: 12 attack (ap) 12 ranged attack (80 range) 16 defense.

    All units would have a shallow recruitment pool (say 3 units) and low availability (1 unit every 5 turns) but the tradeoff would be their relatively low cost. This would ensure that you could always have a few to give some flavor to your armies, but would never be able to build entire armies of them as that would simply take away the fun of playing Byzantium.

    Then, if you still wanted to go with the bodygaurd idea you'd need to make them for every family member and general (hardcoded limits) and since you're already using the Varangian Gaurd model, perhaps reskin Galliolach with cloaks? Half the unit size of normal Gaurdsmen, but with 2HP.

    I was also thinking about adding Cataphract Archers, because the Byzantine Cataphracts used three weapons, I believe they were a lance, bow, and mace. since it is impossible to have a unit with three weapons in the game the archer Cataphracts will represent Cataphracts using bows. Also, the Byzantines will get gunpowder, an extensive roster, to represent the fact that if you are a hugely successful Emperor of Rome, and have not declined like the Roman Empire in the late 1300s and early 1400s you would have a vast arsenal of gunpowder troops like other powers at the time. Anyone who can edit meshes is definitely needed, as is a skinner. A historian or two could help us with the units and all of that. So anyone want to do it?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Byzantine Overhaul

    Here's something that should be of some use

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=76780

  3. #3
    Axeman's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Byzantine Overhaul

    I agree, also byzantiums currecent reliance on cavlalry is historically inacurate, sure they had soem horse archers but most of thier cavalry where simillar to byzantine lancers and byzantine cavalary*the range one* though they did have some lantikon and others, they relied mostly on heavy infantry, so I think we need to put a spearmen in byzantiums roster to make it more realistic, simillar to triaria in rome with a massive anti-cavlary boost, lets say around 12 attack 12 deffence, numbering high as a peasent.

    also making byzantine infantry to 75 men would be more realistic, and adding some skirmishers.

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  4. #4

    Default Re: Byzantine Overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by Axeman View Post
    I agree, also byzantiums currecent reliance on cavlalry is historically inacurate, sure they had soem horse archers but most of thier cavalry where simillar to byzantine lancers and byzantine cavalary*the range one* though they did have some lantikon and others
    Ever heard of the klibanophoroi and kataphraktoi?

  5. #5
    Taneda Santôka's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Byzantine Overhaul

    Both "divisions" are not wrongly depicted by "Byzantine Lancers" : kataphraktoi (depends on the date, they werent always heavily armoured over time) and "Byzantine Cavalry" : klibanophoroi ...

    But true, "byzantiums currecent reliance on cavlalry is historically inacurate" is BS...

  6. #6

    Default Re: Byzantine Overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by Taneda Santôka View Post
    But true, "byzantiums currecent reliance on cavlalry is historically inacurate" is BS...
    And that's what I was after.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Byzantine Overhaul

    In my personal time I have given some new units to Byzantines. If this would be of interest I could send the files.

    I added: Kataphractoi Archers
    Klibanaphoros (heavier cavalry)
    Tzangratai (crossbowmen)
    Allowed Byzantine Infantry to be recruitable in castles when you build garrison quarters
    Skutatoi (Armoured Sergeant equilivants)

    Some units that may not be historically sound:
    Galleas
    More cannons (Mortar, Monster Bombard, Culverin, Ribault, Monster Ribault)
    Hand Gunners
    Arquebusiers

    And I downloaded Rhavas Byz Mod that gave:
    Toufeki Scutatoi (musketeers)
    Arab Gunners (gun cavalry)
    Scutatoi Pikemen
    I speak Latin to God, English to my friends, French to girls, German to my enemies, and Japanese to my PS2.

    Creator of the Byzantine Enhancment Mod
    Version: 1.4

  8. #8

    Default Re: Byzantine Overhaul

    How do you make Castle units recruitable in Cities?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Byzantine Overhaul

    In the export_descr_units file there are sections for buildings constructable in cities. Under these lines you add the lines for the unit you want to add. I would give an example but I can't access my computer right now.
    I speak Latin to God, English to my friends, French to girls, German to my enemies, and Japanese to my PS2.

    Creator of the Byzantine Enhancment Mod
    Version: 1.4

  10. #10
    NaptownKnight's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Byzantine Overhaul

    Yes but we can all agree CA did butcher the Byzantines roster. Is anyone willing to work on this with me?

  11. #11
    Taneda Santôka's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Byzantine Overhaul

    Yes but we can all agree CA did butcher the Byzantines roster. Is anyone willing to work on this with me?
    Not really... Of course it's not very good, but it's an abstract view of the basic military system with stupid english names!

    Maybe HE'll help.

  12. #12
    NaptownKnight's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Byzantine Overhaul

    I would be interested, how could I get a hold of them?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Byzantine Overhaul

    I would but I'm a noob at getting big files and stuff to other people. Would one of you guys recommend a way to get my files across?
    I speak Latin to God, English to my friends, French to girls, German to my enemies, and Japanese to my PS2.

    Creator of the Byzantine Enhancment Mod
    Version: 1.4

  14. #14

    Default Re: Byzantine Overhaul

    Considering how long ago the last reply was, I'm not sure how much life this project has. But after much time through my procrastination habits heres a link to a download. It includes additonal units for Byzantium. This also includes additions made from Rhava's Byzantium Mod which I give credit for a head start on this. This file includes changed battle_models, export_descr_units, export_descr_buildings, export_units, unit cards and info, and skins.

    http://files.filefront.com/Byzantine.../fileinfo.html

    Additions include:
    Touflaki Scutatoi (musketeers)
    Arab Gunners (gun cavalry)
    Bombardizos (Byzantine Naffatun)
    Scutatoi Pikemen
    Kataphractoi Archers
    Klibanaphoros (heavier cavalry)
    Scutatoi (better spearmen)
    Tzangratai (crossbowmen)
    Made Byzantine Infantry recruitable in castles
    Hand Gunners
    Arquebusiers
    Galleas
    Cannons (Ribault, Monster Ribault, Mortar, Culverin, Monster Bombard)

    Enjoy!
    I speak Latin to God, English to my friends, French to girls, German to my enemies, and Japanese to my PS2.

    Creator of the Byzantine Enhancment Mod
    Version: 1.4

  15. #15
    NaptownKnight's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Byzantine Overhaul

    yeah I kind of moved the discussion about it over to dad_savage's thread, but we are going to wait for kingdoms to come out to do it . BTW I am dling this file, it sounds real cool.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Byzantine Overhaul

    i’VE wanted a byz mod with gunpowder units for ages - thanx imperator


    any chance of a readme - so i can get it working - or better still a propa mod? thanks
    Last edited by Amorphos; April 16, 2007 at 05:56 PM.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Byzantine Overhaul

    I guess I didn't give an explanation...

    Anyways it isn't that hard to put in. Hopefully your using a mod switch for this but you can put it on vanilla at your own risk. Just put the files in the appropriate folders. For example files in the text file should be put into and replace the files in the text file your using. The skins I guess I made more complicated...you will notice that the description of each texture file matches the name of the folder in the unit_models file (I think thats the right file). Hope it isn't too confusing.
    I speak Latin to God, English to my friends, French to girls, German to my enemies, and Japanese to my PS2.

    Creator of the Byzantine Enhancment Mod
    Version: 1.4

  18. #18

    Default Re: Byzantine Overhaul

    yup it is too confusing lol, i tried all that but must have messed up somewhere doh

    i think an expanded byz is a great idea,the thing is with totalwar is that as soon as we take one turn it is no longer historical, now if i were a byz emperor i would have made the best use of gunpowder units! biz is the only faction without even arques.

    so if you get time to make it into a mod i am sure i am not the only one who wants to save byz and destroy the turk.

    thanks imp
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Byzantine Overhaul

    Well, there's a concern to be had here. If you up byzantium's roster to have everything, and even some things others don't get (Such as mounted gunners), then they will be horribly unbalanced. The only real way to deal with having an 'all you could want' list is to give them the Seleucid treatment in the campaign, which is where they need a full bodied list because they have everyone honing in on them. Byzantium is in the perfect position to have that happen to them, and if your mod doesn't deal with the campaign, it needn't worry, but it remains to be stressed that they should have a hard time if they get everything possible.

  20. #20
    NaptownKnight's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Byzantine Overhaul

    Of course they would have to be balanced, but thy are horribly over matched in the Late Era anyways, for the simple fact that they have no gunpowder.

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