Varangian Gaurd: Sleepers? (1.2 Units)

[dad_savage]

Ok, I was thinking to myself as I went through a did a little bit of rebalancing for 1.2 whether any units would, now that the shield and two-handed bugs have been fixed suddenly rise to prominance.

Then my mind turned to Varangian Gaurd. They're the only unit that was being effected by both bugs, as although they're a two-handed axe unit they carry a shield giving them 3 defense. So in 1.1 not only could they not hurt cavalry they were also fighting in mellee with 6 less defense, and yet even then I'd heard one or two good things said about them.

With a potential 21 (ap) attack and 17 defense (with their armor and weapon upgrades) 11 morale and a monster charge bonus of 8, these guys may well be the games best infantry unit. At 520 florins a pop, and 175 upkeep, for those stats, you've honestly gotta wonder if these guys might need to be repriced or toned down for the patched game.

[crazyj]

Nah.

[Dk the Honourable]

Cheap and very good.

Well i don't know, you must have some historical support behind before do any change on the units, I don't know if they were good and cheap.

[Candelarius]

I think they should be left alone. The Byzantines need all the help they can get...

[Dk the Honourable]

I think they should be left alone. The Byzantines need all the help they can get...

True, the Byzantine is falling, so some extra help would be usefull.

[dad_savage]

Nah.

... And your logic behind, or reason for this statement is? As it stands (with the shield bug) the best Infantry in the game (tested) is Swiss Gaurd. The best infantry with a shield bug workaround (again, tested) is Venetian Heavy Infantry. Swiss Gaurd are, at best, 13 attack (AP) 12 defence (+4 attack vs Cavalry) Venetian Heavy Infantry are, at best, 18 attack (AP) 18 defense. Varangian Gaurd are, at best, 21 attack (AP) 17 defence. One less defense than the top contender and 3 more attack.

Well i don't know, you must have some historical support behind before do any change on the units, I don't know if they were good and cheap.

The Varangian Gaurd were the personal Gaurd of the Emperor himself, originally recruited from the 'Vikings' amoung the Varangian Rus and later recruited from also Sweden, Denmark and Norway. There's no reason to think of them as a normal or cheap unit. The largest force of them ever assembled is sourced as being 5,000 strong (compare to the extimated 200,000 men that made up the Janissary Corps at its strongest) these guys shouldn't be a normal unit, but rather a numerically limited, expensive, elite force.

I think they should be left alone. The Byzantines need all the help they can get...

The Byzantines arn't weak, in any sense. They've got good heavy cavalry (Latinkon and Cataphracts) good infantry (Dismounted Latinkon, Dismounted Lancers, Byzantine Heavy Infantry) good archers, the best horse archers in the game, the strongest early navy in the game, a good economy, a strong start (strategically) with many wealthy fast growing provinces and a high level of development.

Their army is already powerful, it only lacks gunpowder troops.

I'm not saying Byzantine Guard should be nerfed, I mean they should rock. But the problem is when they cost 520 Florins, and something like Dismounted Gothic Knights (14 attack, 14 defense, no ap) cost 800 Florins, it becomes a severe balance issue. They should cost more.

[Candelarius]

The Byzantines arn't weak, in any sense. They've got good heavy cavalry (Latinkon and Cataphracts) good infantry (Dismounted Latinkon, Dismounted Lancers, Byzantine Heavy Infantry) good archers, the best horse archers in the game, the strongest early navy in the game, a good economy, a strong start (strategically) with many wealthy fast growing provinces and a high level of development.

Their army is already powerful, it only lacks gunpowder troops.

I'm not saying Byzantine Guard should be nerfed, I mean they should rock. But the problem is when they cost 520 Florins, and something like Dismounted Gothic Knights (14 attack, 14 defense, no ap) cost 800 Florins, it becomes a severe balance issue. They should cost more.

The Byzantines are weak. I just finished a campaign with them a few days ago. Yes, they get good heavy cav, but till very late in the tech tree, and their good infantry also come very late in the tech tree. Their Heavy Infantry and Dismounted Lancers are not that good, either.

Strong economy? Good starting position? Hardly. They are sandwiched between Venice, Hungary, and the Turks, get hit had by the Mongols and Timurids in the late game, and are the constant target for jihads. I struggled mightely in my campaign with the Byzantines, had a very hard time financially, and had a difficult time defending long, long, long open borders.

I'm not the only one who has said this, either. The Byzantines really are a challenging faction and I don't see any point in watering down their elite units or making them more costly.

mrcrusty86
If anything, there should be a limit to how many Guard troops you can recruit. (Of course if a troop dies, then they can be replaced)

Aside from that, leave them alone.

Now, that's a very good idea. Limit them somewhat considering they are the elite units. Although, I think they are somewhat limited already? I have checked the EDB lately...

Anyway, that's my two cents.

[crazyj]

... And your logic behind, or reason for this statement is?


The Varangian Gaurd were the personal Gaurd of the Emperor himself, originally recruited from the 'Vikings' amoung the Varangian Rus and later recruited from also Sweden, Denmark and Norway. There's no reason to think of them as a normal or cheap unit. The largest force of them ever assembled is sourced as being 5,000 strong (compare to the extimated 200,000 men that made up the Janissary Corps at its strongest) these guys shouldn't be a normal unit, but rather a numerically limited, expensive, elite force.

So how many in excess of 5,000 do you field at once in M2?......

lol you seriously compare the numerical strengths of the Varangian Guard to that of the Janissary Corps at their strongest? No real purpose here in terms of the game. They don't need repricing. Thats a reflection of other factors besides just historic availability of certain units.

[Spartan156]

I think they should be left alone. The Byzantines need all the help they can get...

What he said.

[mrcrusty]

If anything, there should be a limit to how many Guard troops you can recruit. (Of course if a troop dies, then they can be replaced)

Aside from that, leave them alone.

[Rockstone]

If anything, there should be a limit to how many Guard troops you can recruit. (Of course if a troop dies, then they can be replaced)

Aside from that, leave them alone.

Actually, it would be logical to have this for every faction. Some kind of elite unit that one can have limited numbers of. Makes for good gameplay.

[Germanicus75]

If anything, there should be a limit to how many Guard troops you can recruit. (Of course if a troop dies, then they can be replaced)

QFT. These guys were l££t. Some of the finest men the West had to offer at that time, they were largely composed around the start of our game by former royal or noble Saxon and Danish Huscarls, though there were no doubt Vikings and other elements as well. I doubt the Byz Emperor could just wave his hand and get a truckload new supply of them when he wanted. Their recruitment should be limited. Not as rare as Spartans, but not Legionary Cohorts either :-)

[The Pope]

I'd say the problem is the price, not the stats. A limit for all guard style units would also be good - as far as I know, the scots guard was only several hundred strong, but in game I was fielding multiple armies of them.

[Irishman]

The Varangians were some of the best warriors in the world, they were the only unit to hold the walls of Constantanople during the crusader's siege of the city.

These troops should be some of the greatest warriors, which they are.

I do agree that "Gaurds" should be more expensive though.

[Imperator_Maximus]

The Varagian Gaurd are fine as they are. I personally only use them as my Constantinople Army and Jerusalem Army. They aren't exactly super units either since I have seen them have a hard time fighting Dimsounted Feudal Knights. I find they are balanced and even so the fact that the Byzantines lack gunpowder means they should at least have one really good unit.

[dad_savage]

I'm talking about 1.2 guys. Actually read the thread before you post, yes? Varangian Guard absolutely smash DFK in 1.2, they're quite possibly the best infantry in the game, yet their price is insanely low. D Gothic Knights loose horribly to Varangians in 1.2 and are 800 each and 250 upkeep. Varangians are 520 and 170 upkeep. This isn't balanced. No matter what you think about Byzantine's unit roster, this is not balanced.

For everyone else I reiterate, Byzantine's arn't weak. If you think they're weak you're probably just not that good at the game. No offense, but as I said before their unit roster is strong (good choice of infantry, good early units, good archers, best horse archers, good cavalry) their economy is good (economic buildings, etc) fire ships give you undisputed naval superiority for about 80 turns (they're about as good as Gun Holks) they start with some of the best developed, fasting growing provinces in the game and a good number of them. Being surrounded by potential enemies means nothing. HRE is surrounded by potential enemies. Venice, Milan, France, Poland, Denmark and the Turks are surrounded by potential enemies.

But the game does not resolve around campaign. If you honestly believe the Byzantine's are weak in campaign the Varangian Guard could have their upkeep made smaller (say 155) as upkeep is a more important factor in campaign, and their cost in custom battle could be increased so that they're not overpowered in multiplayer.

[Candelarius]

I'm talking about 1.2 guys. Actually read the thread before you post, yes?

Who the heck was that completely unnecessary jab aimed at? I think I can speak for the rest of us....we know how to read and can do without the attitude. Just because somebody disagrees with you doesn't mean they didn't read your post.

[Marku]

i agree with giving byzantine gunpowder, they really need it in late game.

[NaptownKnight]

Well I say make a mod (looks at any potential modders, since I lack the skill) that limits the number of Varangians you can recruit and give the Byzintines gunpowder. That way you rebalance them by giving them gunpowder and taking away alot of the Varangians. With the mesh editor out their could also be some cool Byzantine gunpowder units. You could call the mod The Byzness

[mrcrusty]

I hate to go even more off-topic

but:

Problems with No-Gunpowdering Byzantines?

Gunpowder Mercs in Constantinople, Thessalonica, Sofia & Asia Minor.

It makes sense.

The Byzantines highly relied on mercs by the time of the fourth crusade and by the time of the Ottoman siege of Constantinople, just about everybody except the Emperor were mercenaries.
Having late period gun mercs makes sense as by it's fall, the Byzantines, I don't think developed any homegrown Gunpowder units like other factions, but it still allows them to still be able to use Gunpowder units.

As for Varangian Guard: I've thought about it a little more, and I believe instead of increasing it's upkeep or costs, say, only allowing it in Cities/Armies with a Named General and limiting it to 2 units of Guards per General.

That way, Captains can't use them, they can serve as "bodyguards", they don't lose all purpose but aren't heavily overpowering at the same time.

Of course... I got NO idea how it's gonna happen... but meh...