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Thread: Spartan transverse crests, Athenian Epilektoi, Overarm etc.

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  1. #1

    Default Re: Living in Hellas

    Sir Francis do you argue seriously that Thucydides never mentions the athenian faction,it's
    army and special operations undertaken by athenian soldiers of high quality and training
    during the peloponnesian war?Of course not!So again i must repeat that the specific term
    "logades" or "epilekti" ,as exactly you name it(and the meaning of these words expresses
    with accuracy the nature of this chosen unit), is not used in classical texts-again i say to
    you that it's a M O D E R N CONVENTIONAL name for the athenian wealthier and heavier
    hoplites.I think you know that the hoplite equipment was very expensive in antiquity
    (especially codonoschimi thorakae or muscular cuirasses and it is not very cheap even
    today,i speak of my own experience).So you understand perfectly why the chosen hoplites of
    Athens,who had the financial strength to support heavier arms and plenty of time (at least
    much more than the poorer soldiers actually had)on military exercise and training ,were only
    the wealthier aristocrats or rich traders and prominent citizens.And each tribe more or less
    had a number of people of suchlike classes.That's common sense.Every general-and state- on
    difficult war occassions uses the valuable services of his best (chosen-epilekti or
    whatever) men organised either as an obvious,distinctive,compact unit or dispersed throught
    the army deployment in strategic places mainly for moral boost.Finally, a suggestion to
    you..If you have problem with the term "Athenian Logades"why you don't criticize the team of
    this mod for the use of the term? Except if you like to play a RTW mod historically
    inaccurate (according to your views always)..

  2. #2

    Default Re: Living in Hellas

    As to transverse crests,well, as perhaps older than you (given the fact that i approach my
    fifties)i can inform you that the issue of the t-crests is much older(before 1986 and
    Secunda's book).I'm not intended here to analyse the relations between the archaeological
    methodology-practice and the historic literal sources because my time is short and the
    matter endless.Just some points here.
    If we doubt everything( playing the game of doubts) , we also must doubt whether we are
    truly doubting. But that gets us into an endless regress (doubting that we are really
    doubting that we are really doubting and so on). So the effort to reach an indubitable
    principle through doubt is doomed from the outset.
    When we speak about ancient literal or archaeological sources we are urged to accept results
    and conclusions in good faith.It's often necessary to make conventional speculations but
    always based on our scientific openminded knowledge and judgement.We can never be
    absolutely sure that whatever we say-for a text,statuette,etc-is the dogmatic reality
    (science is not religion),the absolute truth.Criticism is accepted in science but not
    dogmatism.Take for example the various methods of radiochronology or the carbon-14
    method.They are widely accepted systems under compromise despite the serious doubts about
    their accuracy and effectiveness.We observe a statue or a vase and point out that these
    artifacts are-probably- works of Praxiteles or products of archaic Laconia and that's
    because as far as ancient materials there is no absolute evidence but relative to a certain
    (various) degree.Words like "in all probability"are used to describe something extremely
    possible to be true ( an almost certain fact).So we are effectively convinced that our
    scientific conclusion is right but there is always open field (very often against all odds
    )for different interpretations,opinions and speculations. Of course, it's needless to say
    that the use of scientific logic (previous historic knowledge,experience and sensible
    correlations) is very often absolutely necessary in an effort to reveal some hidden at
    first glance characteristics of an artifact in order to discover its-probable-identity.And
    usually if we study carefully all our sources and materials we have at our disposal then the
    outcome of our search for truth will be realy very close to the ideal of the absolute
    truth.So in the case of Mr Secunda i have to say that his only mistake is a wrong
    speculation about the manufacturer of the statuette.Modern archaelogy is not concerned about
    impresssive or not impressive helmet accessories.The science seems indifferent to such
    things.Archaeologists just dig in the ground and study the sources and materials they
    find.If a discovered war equipment is -objectively or subjectively-impressive,that's
    fine.Of course, wargamers and funs of virtual strategy are happy when archaeological finds
    show something really impressive.That's normal and there is no something antiscientific, irrational or wrong with it..

  3. #3

    Default Re: Living in Hellas

    You mention:"The vast majority (so you accept that ,at least, exist few lacedaemonian crests
    that actually come from Sparta) of T-crests do not come from Sparta". .. Where is the
    strange?That's also mistake of Nick Secunda.As far as the certain statuette i think it's a
    product of other national manufacture cause it depicts a Lacedaemonian officer (or regular?)
    of late 6th-early 5th century bc.Centuries before the Lycourgian Laws Sparta was famous for
    her sculpture and pottery and it's well known that in the period of 6th-5th cen.the arts in
    Lacedaemon were not at their higher level..We can't accept or reject whatever we like from
    the archaeological finds.The same principle is in effect in the case of the argolic
    shield.The fact that the hoplite shields are "cool",beautiful or seem to be visually
    exaggerrating and the fact that-unfortunately- today we have few and very limited samples of aspidae it
    doesn't mean that the argolic shield existed only "during a very short time period"or that
    it was a myth..we can argue and doubt about the size and countless other things but not for
    the existence of the large argolic shield.I can mention endless similar examples.We have
    also inadequate info about
    the so called "battle of champions"(not the battle of Thirea).I don't doubt the possibility to be a true event-i'm not sure about all the Herodotus writings- but
    many scholars have serious objections.As for the hoplon's meaning you mention(again one of your interpretations although i agree with you) the doubts are many too.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Living in Hellas

    The Hellenes hoplites were perhaps the most impressive warriors in world military history
    and they don't need modernization -or other inventions- at all in order to be popular today. Just
    take a look at the innumerable reenactment groups and clubs worldwide(i have the honor to
    belong to one of them as a full member).Finally take a look at the awesome
    (indeed),historically accurate, spartan skins( not only) of this mod and tell me that they
    are simply an artistic product of fantasy!The Spartan Hippeis-Homoii were professional(and
    the best in Hellas for 150-200 years) soldiers even by modern standards.So why it's so
    difficult to you to accept that it's -at least- extremely possible a hoplite professional
    army of such a great quality to have ranks (polemarchs,enomotarchs etc)with distinctive
    insignia?(certainly, it is almost fact if we simply use our common sense).Don't you know that
    except the t-crests the Spartans really("in all probability")had red capes(see the
    statuette),long hairs with well attended "vostrichi"(see again) ,beards (often without
    moustaches) and that all this terrifying looking appearance was just a part of a well
    organised-hollywood style-attempt to intimidate their enemies and consequently a
    successfull way to avoid unnecessary bloodshed?
    What's certain historically is that they weren't Zulus and had military organization-the
    best in the western world before the rise of Rome (even the "amateur"Athenians).If you doubt
    even that then sorry but i can't tell you anything further.It's pointless..

  5. #5

    Default Re: Spartan transverse crests, Athenian Epilektoi, Overarm etc.

    You guys are tearing us apart!!!!

    *sarcasm lol*
    Last edited by McMoose77; April 07, 2007 at 10:44 PM. Reason: LOL
    -McMoose

    MacLachlainn
    Fortis et fidus

  6. #6
    spirit_of_rob's Avatar The force is my ally
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    Default Re: Spartan transverse crests, Athenian Epilektoi, Overarm etc.

    oops forgot to comment in here

    Yep i think i put the right posts in here i didnt read it all quite honestly
    Former Skinner/Modeller for EB Former Skinner/Modeller for Hegemonia


    Patrician Opifex under the patronage of Basileos Leandros I and patron of the Opifex Tone

  7. #7

    Default Re: Spartan transverse crests, Athenian Epilektoi, Overarm etc.

    Oh, right - thanks SOR, forgot those...

    BStar, your posts would be easier to read if you broke up the paragraphs etc.
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  8. #8
    Racer X's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Spartan transverse crests, Athenian Epilektoi, Overarm etc.

    It is a fact that long hair and beards are mentioned/shown in the primary sources for Spartans. Moustache-less beards are not. Perhaps Spartans shaved their left thigh in nice diagonal stripes – there’s not evidence either way.
    If you look at ancient sources you'll see 90% of bearded chaps from all poleis had moustaches (fact).
    This is one thing (among a few) I really hate about Sekunda's Spartan book... the Spartans seem to look mentally challenged without moustaches.

    Funnily enough, the ONE vase painting of a Peloponessian war era Spartan they've based their work on (which may not even be a Spartan) has a clear moustache, and Sekunda mentions that it doesn't. Who is he trying to fool? Yes, Plutarch mentions the Spartans shaved their upper lips... but only once a year. Not for the entire time.

    Keep up the good work Francis, your posts are intelligent and straight to the point.
    Last edited by Racer X; April 08, 2007 at 06:52 AM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Spartan transverse crests, Athenian Epilektoi, Overarm etc.

    I think that both of you have good posts (SF & BS). But it is good to state that many historical things relating to this period are somewhat inconsistent (missing links/not enough proven info), so for many things I believe that both of you could be right.
    -McMoose

    MacLachlainn
    Fortis et fidus

  10. #10

    Default Re: Spartan transverse crests, Athenian Epilektoi, Overarm etc.

    Both post are really rather good. Though in truth we will not be able to determine everything unless we can make a time machine and send someone back who can return and tell us about everthing of that time period.

    But the time machine is impossible and not a very good idea.

    So the our main sources of info are from archeologist, the old historians and poets, and what we know from things passed down through te ages that have survived. So we really have many points of view on a subject.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Spartan transverse crests, Athenian Epilektoi, Overarm etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Praetorian Captain View Post
    Both post are really rather good. Though in truth we will not be able to determine everything unless we can make a time machine and send someone back who can return and tell us about everthing of that time period.

    But the time machine is impossible and not a very good idea.

    So the our main sources of info are from archeologist, the old historians and poets, and what we know from things passed down through te ages that have survived. So we really have many points of view on a subject.
    Oh you wait, as soon as I get my flux capacitor set up in my VW I'm goin' back to get some ancient Greeks to settle this debate. Time travel impossible... oh you'll see!!!
    -McMoose

    MacLachlainn
    Fortis et fidus

  12. #12

    Default Re: Spartan transverse crests, Athenian Epilektoi, Overarm etc.

    Ok. But don't say i didn't warn ya.

    Cause as you are goin back you'll see the painting of the roof of sisten chapel and the next thing you know BOOM!

    You'll be missed badly.


    (Course i'm being sarcastic)

  13. #13

    Default Re: Spartan transverse crests, Athenian Epilektoi, Overarm etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Praetorian Captain View Post
    Ok. But don't say i didn't warn ya.

    Cause as you are goin back you'll see the painting of the roof of sisten chapel and the next thing you know BOOM!

    You'll be missed badly.


    (Course i'm being sarcastic)
    So I won't be missed
    -McMoose

    MacLachlainn
    Fortis et fidus

  14. #14

    Default Re: Spartan transverse crests, Athenian Epilektoi, Overarm etc.

    It is true that one has to be careful about facts in history. Indeed, generally speaking, the further back you go, the more difficult it is to find facts - so us guys in Ancient Greece have to be a little cautious.

    But some things are facts and I'll present a little info/evidence for those who are concerned with getting their facts straight rather than resting in not-knowing, because although this is 'only' a game site, I see no reason why precision and detail do not sometimes have their place, at least for those who wish it.

    ASPIS/HOPLON

    The aspis/hoplon ‘debate’ is one of those rare things in that is in fact not ambiguous at all. There is a correct answer to the debate, and there is evidence (lots of it) to support the correct view. The incorrect view has no leg to stand on, despite its amazingly widespread support, and has no evidence backing it up. A rare bird indeed.

    Anyone who can read Greek and peruses Herodotus, Xenophon and Thucydides (and various other chaps who actually fought in Classical Greece and wrote about it) will see immediately that hoplon doesn't even mean shield (never mind a particular one). It means arms/weapons (sometimes tools). The word aspis in reference to a hoplite’s shield occurs fifty times in Xenophon and more than ten times in Thucydides’ Peloponnesian War. Hoplon is not used at all specifically for shield in these works.

    Here are just a few random examples from the original Greek text from Thucydides (translations by Richard Crawley) showing that the Greek word for a shield carried by a hoplite is an aspis (I'm guessing the majority do not read Classical Greek, but if you even just look at the context of the quotes you can see what I'm saying):

    ...hoi de akousantes parêkan tas ASPIDAS hoi pleistoi kai tas cheiras aneseisan... [4.38.1]
    [The Lakedaimonians (hoplites)]...hearing this offer, most of them lowered their shields and waved their hands...

    ...ep' ASPIDAS de pente men kai eikosi Thêbaioi etaxanto... [4.93.1]
    ...The Thebans [hoplites] formed twenty-five shields deep...

    ...to de allo karterai machêi kai ôthismôi ASPIDON xuneistêkei... [4.96.2]
    ...the rest [of the hoplites]engaged with the utmost obstinacy, shield against shield...

    And a few to show that the word hoplon is used to mean 'arms' in a general sense:

    ...kai xunêthê tên diaitan meth' HOPLON epoiêsanto hôsper hoi barbaroi. [1.6.1]
    ...indeed, to wear arms was as much a part of everyday life with them as with the barbarians.

    ...gnôsthentes têi te skeuêi tôn HOPLON xuntethammenêi... [1.8.1]
    ...they were identified by the fashion of the arms buried with them...

    ...eisi gar kai ekeinois ouk elassous chrêmata pherontes xummachoi, kai estin ho polemos ouch HOPLON to pleon alla dapanês... [1.53.2]
    ...have allies as numerous as our own, and allies that pay tribute, and war is a matter not so much of arms as of money...

    Diodorus is much to blame for the confusion, because it is he who said the peltast and the hoplite are named after their shields (and we know for a fact that pelte is used for light shields in the ancient texts). In fact, he can be disregarded regarding many military details, and he's not a primary source - you have to remember he wrote four centuries after the Peloponnesian War.

    What he actually says is that the hoplite is named after his shield - and in a sense he is, because hoplite means heavily-armed, and in those days the aspis was the heaviest piece of equipment a soldier might carry, weighing about 15 lbs.
    Indeed, for much of the period the large shield was the only thing that distinguished the hoplite's equipment from other troops - thus he carried a heavy shield and was called a heavy infantryman - thus he was named after his shield.

    But anyway so much of what Diodorus says conflicts with what people who were there at the time say about war. Far better to read the texts of the men who actually carried the shield during Classical Greece.

    And it’s not just the military historians. Aristophanes, the comic playwright, who lived and wrote during the Peloponnesian War, mentions ‘shield’ eight times in Acharnanians, once in Birds, twice in Clouds – all are aspis. There are many other instances of this in the ancient literature.

    It’s true that Liddell and Scots Greek Lexicon (from the 1800s!), still the most widely used Attic dictionary, bought into the hoplon myth, but if you look up hoplon in the much more recent Oxford Classical Greek Dictionary, you'll see yet more evidence:
    “Hoplon (ou to) usu. pl.: Tool, implement; ship’s tackle; arms, harness, armour, weapon; camp.”
    No mention whatsoever of shields.

    The fact is the word 'hoplite' is an old word (from at least the writer Pindar, probably before), and when hoplites began their career they were indeed heavily-armed - a thick bronze cuirass (this is before the linothrax etc.), greaves, a large, closed helm, and often leg and arm (even foot) armour. So it seems likely the hoplite was named for his overall panoply. (And it is pan(H)OPLy, as in 'all-arms').

    Basically, if you go through the entire corpus of Greek Classical literature, you will find the word used for hoplite shield is aspis, and that hoplon doesn’t mean shield (except occasionally where it’s a shield as part of 'arms and armour').

    Belief in the hoplon is still widespread. Since the 80s a few of us have debated this (and received much abuse for doing so!) and in 1996 we finally got: 'The Myth of the Hoplite's Hoplon' by Lazenby and Whitehead in Classical Quarterly Vol. 46. The title says it all.

    But the myth persists, simply because people build on others' mistakes and rarely take the time to really find out (after all, we're all so busy...).
    Last edited by Sir Francis; April 08, 2007 at 06:37 PM.
    ___________________________

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  15. #15

    Default Re: Spartan transverse crests, Athenian Epilektoi, Overarm etc.

    Basically, it is a common misconception.

    Hoplite, argh... shield would be hoplon. I don't blame people as I did that mistake myself, as I thought it had been universally accepted. A "wrong" commonly accepted becomes right. It is up to those who know better to speak up as you did, and EYGE for that...

    Basically

    Hoplon=weapon
    aspis=shield

    (What the hell is Kudos, anyway?)

    Same as Egoist, becoming egotist, because someone didn't like it.
    Go Minerwars Go! A 6DOF game of space mining and shooting. SAKA Co-FC, Koinon Hellenon FC, Epeiros FC. RS Hellenistic Historian K.I.S.S.




  16. #16

    Default Re: Spartan transverse crests, Athenian Epilektoi, Overarm etc.

    I was saying we don't know somethings not everything. Sometimes people in history can be a little byassed. Though there are thinks that are known from facts like you have said. People will have different views from differents perspectives; now on the perspectives that all or the majority agree with are facts. These we can relate to others we have to look into it a little more.
    I'm not saying someone is right or wrong, if they favor one side or the other, I did not live in that time as for those who decode this i do not envy their job for it is hard, but then again we know most of this stuff from the historians.


    A little saying i heard many times history is written by the winners.

    May not mean much but just something to throw out. I'm trying to be neutral on this but if i'm doin a bad job pleae tell me. Also i apologize if a offend or ever offended anyone.



    Oh mcmoose i was being sacastic about the time travel not about you bein missed.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Spartan transverse crests, Athenian Epilektoi, Overarm etc.

    PC, you're right, of course much must remain unknown about the past, and yes historians are often biased, or if not then at least unconsciously subjective. 'History is written by the Victors' is a quote from Sir Winston Churchill - who aside from being Prime Minister was also a great historian - and of course points to a great truth.

    But there are things, too, that we can know (or know to a large degree - after all, do we really know that we exist?) and precisely because historical facts are so few, they are also in a sense precious - which is why they are often protected by the historically-minded.
    ___________________________

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    ___________________________





  18. #18

    Default Re: Spartan transverse crests, Athenian Epilektoi, Overarm etc.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspis

    I'm familiar with the Tragedies and a variety of other sources but I have never read Xenophon. Nevertheless, it was my understanding than Xenophon was a less reliable source than Thucydides, for instance, in part owing to Xenophon's Spartan affinity.

    Nevertheless, the terms Hoplon and Aspis seem to describe the same object from what this wikipedia article says. Wikipedia is certainly far from being a reliable source, but based upon the presentation of the article (easy to read and fairly well layed out) I would say it's at least as reliable as any individual posting here.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Spartan transverse crests, Athenian Epilektoi, Overarm etc.

    will macedonia be greeks or diffrent ethnic group.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Spartan transverse crests, Athenian Epilektoi, Overarm etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hjalmar View Post

    it was my understanding than Xenophon was a less reliable source than Thucydides, for instance, in part owing to Xenophon's Spartan affinity.
    Does a man's political bias affect the way he speaks his language? Xen. may have been a Spartophile, but he could speak good Greek!

    Also, if you look you will see the quotes I give are from Thucydides, not from Xen.

    The wiki article is very poor indeed. Why does it quote a source centuries after the Classical Greek era (Diodorus) when there are perfectly good (nay, far batter!) sources from the actual period?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hjalmar View Post
    Wikipedia is certainly far from being a reliable source, but based upon the presentation of the article (easy to read and fairly well layed out) I would say it's at least as reliable as any individual posting here.
    I think it less than perceptive to assume an article (or a post here) well laid out and easy to read is necessarily accurate!

    Again, if you look, you will see I have provided the references in Thucydides; thus you can look it up for yourself instead of relying on wiki or me.
    ___________________________

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