(Moved to Vote)Redefining the Patricians - The End Game

[Perikles]

This is it, after talking with Scorch we have come up with a compromise we believe will please everyone while still getting the job done. The Change to my original proposal is in section 3 Article 4. Link to Change

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Redefining the Patrician Rank v3.0

Proposer: Perikles and Scorch
Supporters: Rome AC

Citizens: Elrond, Plutarch, Cymera, Hotspur, Shaun

The following articles will be changed:

Section 2 Article 3 - Legislative Procedure

The procedure for proposing and voting on either bill is the same. Each version of the bill requires named support from at least three PatriciansCitizens, one of whom must be a Patrician and must be debated for at least three days in the prothalamus before the proposer can request the bill be moved to vote. If, after three days the debate is still active, the Curator may delay moving the bill to vote after one month. A delay of longer than a month is at the Curators discretion only upon at least three patriciansCitizens, one of whom must be a Patrician, requesting more time for debate.

When a bill is moved to vote, the debate thread is left open, and the Curator shall post the newest draft of the bill, the name of the proposer, the name of the bills three named supporters, and a link to the debate, as a new poll in the Curia Votes forum. All bills shall be voted on for one week. Subsequent posts in this thread, are limited to notification of having voted. Messages lobbying to vote for or against, including via Signatures and Avatars, are prohibited except in the original debate thread. All bills shall pass on the basis of a two-thirds majority of non abstaining votes in favour. If any bill fails a vote, no re-vote on a substantially similar bill will be permitted within twenty-eight days.

Section 2 Article 4 - Curial Committees

After a Decision is made by a temporary committee, it shall be posted in the Prothalamos for three days, prior to implementation. If three or more PatriciansCitizens, one of whom must be a Patrician, state an objection, implementation will be postponed. It will be at the discretion of the Curator, Committee, and Committee Chairman whether to take the proposal back to the committee for revision (the objecting PatriciansCitizens are therefore expected to take part in the revision discussion), or continue the discussion in the Prothalamos until there are no more than two objections.

Section 3 Article 1 - Normal Ranks

Patricians are those Citizens who have continued to excell in their position within the forum by contributing to a greater extent than their citizenship requires.contribute to the forums and have remained in good standing for 3 months.

A Citizen may be nominated to this rank by another PatricianA Citizen may be promoted to this rank in accordance with Article 4 below. Patricianship is awarded by the Consilium de Civitate for significant contribution to TWC (Appendix A). None of these contributions provide automatic promotion, but instead allow for nomination. The nominee must also have been a Citizen for at least one months and have no warnings at the time of their election.
The prospective Patrician must have been a held the rank of Citizen for 3 months and recived no warnings.

A Patrician has all the rights of a Citizen, and in addition becomes eligible to be considered for higher office. Patricians are also required sponsors of Bills.

Article 3 - Patronisation

Any Citizenholding their rank for three monthsPatrician can patronise a Peregrinus for citizenship subject to the requirements in Article 1 above. The process of patronisation is as follows.

Changes Begin Here

Article 4 - Promotion of Patricians

A Citizen is nominated by an existing Patrician, who PMs a CdeC member to commence the nomination procedure. Points 3 and 4 of Article 3 are then followed.Any Citizen who has held their rank for three months, without receiving a Staff warning, may PM the Speaker of the House, the Curator of a CdeC member and request to be promoted to the Rank of Patrician. The recipient of the request will then create a thread in the Consilium de Civitate, and If 3 days pass without 4 objections the candidate becomes a Patrician. However, if 4 CdeC members object to the promotion a 7 day vote is triggered requiring a 60% majority for the candidate to pass. If a Citizen fails that vote, they must wait a further two months before submitting themselves for consideration again, and should do so in the same manner as the first time.

Appendix A shall also be removed.

If this passes it will not overwrite any changes made by this bill

Version History:

v3.0 : clarified 4 objections needed to trigger a vote, and a member can now PM a CdeC member and the Curator too to request the rank. Only one application can be made every 2 months added.
v2.0 : original version

Find the version now in use on post 17!

[Scorch]

Well, needless to say ... this has my support.

Not that it means much yet anyway.

[Plutarch]

I like it. But alot of people will be in dissent with the 3 month period; especially since most dont even think that 6 months is long enough.

[Scorch]

I like it. But alot of people will be in dissent with the 3 month period; especially since most dont even think that 6 months is long enough.

Hmm .... well I think that's pretty foolish. I mean, there are some new citizens that deserve to be Patricians more than the civitates that have been around for ages.

I think the fact that we can't decide on a case by case matter means that 3 months is a good compromise.

[Aristophanes]

Hmm .... well I think that's pretty foolish. I mean, there are some new citizens that deserve to be Patricians more than the civitates that have been around for ages.

I think the fact that we can't decide on a case by case matter means that 3 months is a good compromise.

Why can't we?

[Romanos]

I support this bill. (you happy know JP)

[Sinuhet]

I could support this genrally, good compromise. However I wolud like to point out two things.

Section 3 Article 1 - Normal Ranks
Why to remove the wording: Patricians are those Citizens who have continued to excell in their position within the forum by contributing to a greater extent than their citizenship requires. ??? The wording: "contribute to the forums and have remained in good standing for 3 months." is very weak in my opinion to can to be candidate for parician in my angle of viewing things ....

Let there to be a paragraph:

Patricianship is awarded by the Consilium de Civitate for significant contribution to TWC (Appendix A). None of these contributions provide automatic promotion, but instead allow for nomination. The nominee must also have been a Citizen for at least one months and have no warnings at the time of their election.
A Patrician has all the rights of a Citizen, and in addition becomes eligible to be considered for higher office. Patricians are also required sponsors of Bills.

This can put the self-checking feature to the all process. The people could do self-censoring before running for the title, this will remove the danger fo emotions also to large extent, if anybody will not obtain his "right" ...


The se cond objection of mine:

Article 3 - Patronisation
Any Patrician can patronise a Peregrinus for citizenship subject to the requirements in Article 1 above. The process of patronisation is as follows.

Do you realy want to strip "normal" citizen from patronisation process? It is a matte of discussion, I am neutral in this, but many people can see this as an hurdle for accepting this whole thing ....

[Scorch]

That is, I propose that:

Redefining the Patrician Rank v3.1

Proposer: Perikles and Scorch
Supporters: imb39, Sinuhet

The following articles will be changed:

Section 2 Article 3 - Legislative Procedure

The procedure for proposing and voting on either bill is the same. Each version of the bill requires named support from at least three PatriciansCitizens, one of whom must be a Patrician and must be debated for at least three days in the prothalamus before the proposer can request the bill be moved to vote. If, after three days the debate is still active, the Curator may delay moving the bill to vote after one month. A delay of longer than a month is at the Curators discretion only upon at least three patriciansCitizens, one of whom must be a Patrician, requesting more time for debate.

When a bill is moved to vote, the debate thread is left open, and the Curator shall post the newest draft of the bill, the name of the proposer, the name of the bills three named supporters, and a link to the debate, as a new poll in the Curia Votes forum. All bills shall be voted on for one week. Subsequent posts in this thread, are limited to notification of having voted. Messages lobbying to vote for or against, including via Signatures and Avatars, are prohibited except in the original debate thread. All bills shall pass on the basis of a two-thirds majority of non abstaining votes in favour. If any bill fails a vote, no re-vote on a substantially similar bill will be permitted within twenty-eight days.

Section 2 Article 4 - Curial Committees

After a Decision is made by a temporary committee, it shall be posted in the Prothalamos for three days, prior to implementation. If three or more PatriciansCitizens, one of whom must be a Patrician, state an objection, implementation will be postponed. It will be at the discretion of the Curator, Committee, and Committee Chairman whether to take the proposal back to the committee for revision (the objecting PatriciansCitizens are therefore expected to take part in the revision discussion), or continue the discussion in the Prothalamos until there are no more than two objections.

Section 3 Article 1 - Normal Ranks

Patricians are those Citizens who have continued to excell in their position within the forum by contributing to a greater extent than their citizenship requires.to the forums and have remained in good standing for 3 months.

A Citizen may be nominated to this rank by another PatricianA Citizen may be promoted to this rank in accordance with Article 4 below. Patricianship is awarded by the Consilium de Civitate for significant contribution to TWC (Appendix A). None of these contributions provide automatic promotion, but instead allow for nomination. The nominee must also have been a Citizen for at least one months and have no warnings at the time of their election.
The prospective Patrician must have been a held the rank of Citizen for 3 months and recived no warnings. If they have contributed to the forums in the ways described in Appendix A, then their application should be considered strongly.

A Patrician has all the rights of a Citizen, and in addition becomes eligible to be considered for higher office. Patricians are also required sponsors of Bills.

Article 3 - Patronisation

Any Citizen holding their rank for three monthsCitizen who has held their rank for more than three months can patronise a Peregrinus for citizenship subject to the requirements in Article 1 above. The process of patronisation is as follows.

Changes Begin Here

Article 4 - Promotion of Patricians

A Citizen is nominated by an existing Patrician, who PMs a CdeC member to commence the nomination procedure. Points 3 and 4 of Article 3 are then followed.Any Citizen who has held their rank for three months, without receiving a Staff warning, may PM any member of the CdeC and request to be promoted to the Rank of Patrician. That particular member of the CdeC will then create a thread in the Consilium de Civitate, and If 3 days pass without an objection the candidate becomes a Patrician. However, if a single CdeC members object to the promotion a 7 day vote is triggered requiring a 60% majority for the candidate to pass. If a Citizen fails that vote, they must wait a further two months before submitting themselves for consideration again, and should do so in the same manner as the first time.

If this passes it will not overwrite any changes made by this bill

I could support this genrally, good compromise. However I wolud like to point out two things.

Section 3 Article 1 - Normal Ranks
Why to remove the wording: Patricians are those Citizens who have continued to excell in their position within the forum by contributing to a greater extent than their citizenship requires. ??? The wording: "contribute to the forums and have remained in good standing for 3 months." is very weak in my opinion to can to be candidate for parician in my angle of viewing things ....

Let there to be a paragraph:

Patricianship is awarded by the Consilium de Civitate for significant contribution to TWC (Appendix A). None of these contributions provide automatic promotion, but instead allow for nomination. The nominee must also have been a Citizen for at least one months and have no warnings at the time of their election.
A Patrician has all the rights of a Citizen, and in addition becomes eligible to be considered for higher office. Patricians are also required sponsors of Bills.

This can put the self-checking feature to the all process. The people could do self-censoring before running for the title, this will remove the danger fo emotions also to large extent, if anybody will not obtain his "right" ...


The se cond objection of mine:

Article 3 - Patronisation
Any Patrician can patronise a Peregrinus for citizenship subject to the requirements in Article 1 above. The process of patronisation is as follows.

Do you realy want to strip "normal" citizen from patronisation process? It is a matte of discussion, I am neutral in this, but many people can see this as an hurdle for accepting this whole thing ....

Yeah, I see what you mean, parts of this were written before the last part was edited.

And I think the whole idea that outstanding contributers can be nominated deserves an entire other proposal (assuming this one passes).

But yes, I do agree the wording is weak, allow me to make some changes to what I think should be proposed ...

Edit: changes made.

[imb39]

OK. Some observations. This was the idea that Scorch came up with whilst we were chatting away on MSN. I like this - it's a half way house between the old nad the new. It does need to be earned, however, so it now has intrinsic worth.

Now, onto other matters...

First of all, I would still keep the Appendix. It gives everyone someithng to work from. This way, everyone knows something of the criteria used. Of course, it is not exclusive - other matters often come into play.

Secondly, I think the idea of patronising being given to Citizens of three months good standing should stay. Given that the CDC votes on this, I do not see this being a problem.

Thirdly, this will cause logistical problems initially (as many new systems do) but once things settle down it looks rigorous enough to ensure that there is a degree of merit in the rank.

The idea that 4 needed to object was, I think, too woolly. Ithink one objecting should be enough to call for a vote. If there are concerns, why not investigate? With this in mind, I support Version 2.

You might want to allow the prospective Patrician to PM the Curator too, or any member of the CDC.

I like Version 3 (as of 12:51 BST. It changes quickly...)

[Perikles]

First of all, I would still keep the Appendix. It gives everyone someithng to work from. This way, everyone knows something of the criteria used. Of course, it is not exclusive - other matters often come into play.

It is not exclusive, therefore pointless. I don't want the new patrician rank to become bogged down in weighing up contributions again like this one has. Therefore it is restricting and pointless.

Secondly, I think the idea of patronising being given to Citizens of three months good standing should stay. Given that the CDC votes on this, I do not see this being a problem.

The idea is this Patrician rank is a lot easier to gain than the one we have now. If a person isn't worthy enough to get past the CdeC (which as i say should be easy) then they aren't worthy of patronising in my opinion. patronisation will be one of the few things that distinguish them from Citizens.

The idea that 4 needed to object was, I think, too woolly. Ithink one objecting should be enough to call for a vote. If there are concerns, why not investigate? With this in mind, I support Version 2.

You know what the CdeC is like, everyone has an objection to anything, in this way every Patrician would probably need a vote. There are still 3 days before anyone passes, these can be used to raise any objections, which can either be dismissed or upheld if 3 others agree, triggering a vote. 1/4 of the CdeC sounds like the optimum number, if CdeC membership is to 8 reduced this should be reduced to 2.

You might want to allow the prospective Patrician to PM the Curator too, or any member of the CDC.

Yeah, edited my version.

[imb39]

It is not exclusive, therefore pointless. I don't want the new patrician rank to become bogged down in weighing up contributions again like this one has. Therefore it is restricting and pointless.

Actually, it also serves as some sort of protection from site politics - yes these things do happen. If there are ways for people to make their candidacy more secure, then why not? They are guidelines. Suggestions if you will. As you perfectly well know, they are applied to each case individually and other factors are present.

The idea is this Patrician rank is a lot easier to gain than the one we have now. If a person isn't worthy enough to get past the CdeC (which as i say should be easy) then they aren't worthy of patronising in my opinion. patronisation will be one of the few things that distinguish them from Citizens.

I think it will still be easier. For starters, people can nominate themselves. Secondly what you were proposing was a vote in effect. Let's not ignore this. If 4 people raisde objections, then the candidate will probably fail. If one raises objections, then, surely, it is the duty of the CDC to ensure that the candidate meets the requirements (what ever they may be... See, an appendix does come in handy. )

You know what the CdeC is like, everyone has an objection to anything, in this way every Patrician would probably need a vote. There are still 3 days before anyone passes, these can be used to raise any objections, which can either be dismissed or upheld if 3 others agree, triggering a vote. 1/4 of the CdeC sounds like the optimum number, if CdeC membership is to 8 reduced this should be reduced to 2.

I answered that above. If everything needs a vote (which is not necessarily true, btw, then that happens. Surely, you'd have to do a cursory investigation for each candidate anyway, unless you know them very well. The sole difference is that you have to click on a button... The trials and tribulations of democracy. Next, you'll be demanding voting booths in supermarkets!

Yeah, edited my version.

Marvellous.

[Perikles]

Actually, it also serves as some sort of protection from site politics - yes these things do happen. If there are ways for people to make their candidacy more secure, then why not? They are guidelines. Suggestions if you will. As you perfectly well know, they are applied to each case individually and other factors are present.

I really don't see the point in them.

I think it will still be easier. For starters, people can nominate themselves. Secondly what you were proposing was a vote in effect. Let's not ignore this. If 4 people raisde objections, then the candidate will probably fail. If one raises objections, then, surely, it is the duty of the CDC to ensure that the candidate meets the requirements (what ever they may be... See, an appendix does come in handy. )

I answered that above. If everything needs a vote (which is not necessarily true, btw, then that happens. Surely, you'd have to do a cursory investigation for each candidate anyway, unless you know them very well. The sole difference is that you have to click on a button... The trials and tribulations of democracy. Next, you'll be demanding voting booths in supermarkets!

4 CdeC member is 1/4 of the CdeC, that is a sufficient number that the Candidate might pass or might not, at around 1/4 it is in the balance. But if 1 member out of 16 raises n objection, which regularly happens anyway, every case will go to a vote, maybe pointlessly, maybe not.

If every case ends up going to a vote because of only needing 1 member to object this legislation is pointless as we are back at the status quo we have now.

[imb39]

I really don't see the point in them.

That is your prerogative. Remember, the PAtrician rank, as it stands, has potential duties it can run. I think the activites outlined in Appendix A help to define that. They create a rationale, at least, for a candidate have a reasonable chance of expecting success at the very least. It also provides something that the CDC can point to if they reject a candidate.

4 CdeC member is 1/4 of the CdeC, that is a sufficient number that the Candidate might pass or might not, at around 1/4 it is in the balance. But if 1 member out of 16 raises n objection, which regularly happens anyway, every case will go to a vote, maybe pointlessly, maybe not.

If every case ends up going to a vote because of only needing 1 member to object this legislation is pointless as we are back at the status quo we have now.

I think 4 is too high. If a 1/4 object on some grounds then these things should be looked at very carefully. Maybe 1 is too tight, Perhaps 2?

[imb39]

I think it provides a useful guide. The purpose was to indicate commitment to the site. The rank opens up possiblities (eg voting on other members), I think it is handy, just like the Moderator's Guidebook...

Also, referring to the patronisation issue, I think the idea of tightening up patronisation rights is the wrong way to go. We should not be looking at ways of making Citizenship harder to obtain!

[Elrond]

Also, referring to the patronisation issue, I think the idea of tightening up patronisation rights is the wrong way to go. We should not be looking at ways of making Citizenship harder to obtain!

25 new citizens in month is enough - in 3 months time that will probably be around 15-20 new Patricians per month!

[Sinuhet]

It is funny, I had a lunch, and the things have been solved optimally in that time themselves. I support fully the version 3.1 of this bill.

[Perikles]

New version:

Redefining the Patrician Rank v4.0

Proposer: Perikles and Scorch
Supporters: Rome AC, Sir Dinadan, Makanyane

Citizens: Elrond, Plutarch, Cymera, Hotspur, Shaun

The following articles will be changed:

Section 2 Article 3 - Legislative Procedure

The procedure for proposing and voting on either bill is the same. Each version of the bill requires named support from at least three PatriciansCitizens, one of whom must be a Patrician and must be debated for at least three days in the prothalamus before the proposer can request the bill be moved to vote. If, after three days the debate is still active, the Curator may delay moving the bill to vote after one month. A delay of longer than a month is at the Curators discretion only upon at least three patriciansCitizens, one of whom must be a Patrician, requesting more time for debate.

When a bill is moved to vote, the debate thread is left open, and the Curator shall post the newest draft of the bill, the name of the proposer, the name of the bills three named supporters, and a link to the debate, as a new poll in the Curia Votes forum. All bills shall be voted on for one week. Subsequent posts in this thread, are limited to notification of having voted. Messages lobbying to vote for or against, including via Signatures and Avatars, are prohibited except in the original debate thread. All bills shall pass on the basis of a two-thirds majority of non abstaining votes in favour. If any bill fails a vote, no re-vote on a substantially similar bill will be permitted within twenty-eight days.

Section 2 Article 4 - Curial Committees

After a Decision is made by a temporary committee, it shall be posted in the Prothalamos for three days, prior to implementation. If three or more PatriciansCitizens, one of whom must be a Patrician, state an objection, implementation will be postponed. It will be at the discretion of the Curator, Committee, and Committee Chairman whether to take the proposal back to the committee for revision (the objecting PatriciansCitizens are therefore expected to take part in the revision discussion), or continue the discussion in the Prothalamos until there are no more than two objections.

Section 3 Article 1 - Normal Ranks

Patricians are those Citizens who have continued to excell in their position within the forum by contributing to a greater extent than their citizenship requires.contribute to the forums and have remained in good standing for 3 months.

A Citizen may be nominated to this rank by another PatricianA Citizen may be promoted to this rank in accordance with Article 4 below. Patricianship is awarded by the Consilium de Civitate for significant contribution to TWC (Appendix A). None of these contributions provide automatic promotion, but instead allow for nomination. The nominee must also have been a Citizen for at least one months and have no warnings at the time of their election.
The prospective Patrician must have been a held the rank of Citizen for 3 months and recived no warnings.

A Patrician has all the rights of a Citizen, and in addition becomes eligible to be considered for higher office. Patricians are also required sponsors of Bills.

Article 3 - Patronisation

Any Citizenholding their rank for three monthsPatrician can patronise a Peregrinus for citizenship subject to the requirements in Article 1 above. The process of patronisation is as follows.

Changes Begin Here

Article 4 - Promotion of Patricians

A Citizen is nominated by an existing Patrician, who PMs a CdeC member to commence the nomination procedure. Points 3 and 4 of Article 3 are then followed.Any Citizen who has held their rank for three months, without receiving a Staff warning, may PM the Speaker of the House, the Curator or a CdeC member and request to be promoted to the Rank of Patrician. The recipient of the request will then create a thread in the Consilium de Civitate, and If 3 days pass without 4 objections the candidate becomes a Patrician. However, if 4 CdeC members object to the promotion a 7 day vote is triggered requiring a 60% majority for the candidate to pass. If a Citizen fails that vote, they must wait a further two months before submitting themselves for consideration again, and should do so in the same manner as the first time.

Appendix A shall also be removed.

If this passes it will not overwrite any changes made by this bill

Version History:

v4.0 : clarified a number of things I can't even be bothered to list.
v3.0 : clarified 4 objections needed to trigger a vote, and a member can now PM a CdeC member and the Curator too to request the rank. Only one application can be made every 2 months added.
v2.0 : original version

[Scorch]

And my support is, once again, given.

Good night.

[imb39]

No. I don't support. I like the concept enormously but the patronisation element is wholly wrong. I think we are being terribly regressive in this regard and it goes totally against the spirit of the changes I pushed through months ago.

Elrond, you are corect, there are a number of people being patronised - have you seen how many are patronising, though? Take out JP and myself, and the numbers would be much lower...

If find it particularly ironic that much is being made of making the Patrician rank easier to get but we still make it harder for standard members to get on the first rung of the ladder. Why is it that people seem to want to make it harder for those without ranks to get anywhere? I don't mind elitism generally, but I do find that effectively disenfranchising people will not help the situation. Not in the slightest.

[Scorch]

No. I don't support. I like the concept enormously but the patronisation element is wholly wrong. I think we are being terribly regressive in this regard and it goes totally against the spirit of the changes I pushed through months ago.

Elrond, you are corect, there are a number of people being patronised - have you seen how many are patronising, though? Take out JP and myself, and the numbers would be much lower...

If find it particularly ironic that much is being made of making the Patrician rank easier to get but we still make it harder for standard members to get on the first rung of the ladder. Why is it that people seem to want to make it harder for those without ranks to get anywhere? I don't mind elitism generally, but I do find that effectively disenfranchising people will not help the situation. Not in the slightest.

Just to put this out there, v3.1 still has 2 patrician supporters.