Byzantine tactics!!!!!!!!!!!

**jo the greek** · April 06, 2007, 04:01 AM

I have searched the web and found some byzantines tactics that was used until 1204 i think.
Byzantines used heavy spearmen called skutatoi in units called Chiliarchiai that were composed from 650 spearmen and 350 archers.
They would use this units in several formations such as phalanx or wedge formation.
The cavalry of byzantines was consisted by two types Cataphracts and Light cavalry by nomads. The units of cavalry formations ware consisted by 300 men. The heavy cavalry would used a collection of weapons but mainly bows so their charge would be totaly different.
The Byzantines usually preferred using the cavalry for flanking and envelopment attacks, instead of frontal assaults and almost always preceded and supported their charges with arrow fire. The front ranks of the numeri would draw bows and fire on the enemy's front ranks, then once the foe had been sufficiently weakened would draw their lances and charge. The back ranks would follow, drawing their bows and firing ahead as they rode. This combination of missile fire with shock action put their opponents at a grave disadvantage - If they closed ranks to better resist the charging lances, they would make themselves more vulnerable to the bows' fire, if they spread out to avoid the arrows the lancers would have a much easier job of breaking their thinned ranks. Many times the arrow fire and start of a charge were enough to cause the enemy to run without the need to close or melee.

Basically in a battle Byzantines would use their infantry to charge with the support of archers and then the cavalry would flank the enemy... For more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_battle_tactics

**Dk the Honourable** · April 06, 2007, 06:40 AM

In the game, Byzantine are good for flanking, but not with melee infantry. I think they are better with missile units and the can do some damage to the flanks then.

**Lord Firkraag** · July 10, 2007, 04:00 PM

I was just playing 1 on 1 against the French, as the Byzantines, and had this problem; even though I killed 24% of his army (losing 3% of mine) before the fight even started, because of cavalry archers (2 Vardariotai and 2 Byz Cavalry), when all units locked themselves against each other, I lost.

So I am wondering, with Byz, what units do you usually take? I found spearmen to be terribly inefficient, even against cavalry. And how are they best used? They aren't really for squaring off against an enemy, are they?

Final question; 2 battle lines or one? One is wide, but risky... two is safer, but when I order my units to move forward, they get stuck behind the first line instead of going through them and against the enemy

I did wonder what the Strategikon has to say about fighting Franks, and all I found was an interesting idea. "Don't fight them, attack their camps at night". I wonder if the Art of War would help more.

Thanks in advance!

PS For reference, this is what I've been doing.

When facing heavy cavalry, the cataphracts go behind the infantry (and in front of the archers) to attack only after the enemy has charged. The horse archers still stay on the flanks to try and go around faster.

**Adrian** · July 10, 2007, 05:21 PM

i have a very different approach than yours first off all y put all mi cavalry a distance away of the main infantry army i use mi cavalry basically as a second army mi infantry in spread in a single line spearmen in the middle heavy infantry in the flanks and archers behind the thing you got to do is pin them down with your infantry and circle around there backs with cavalry you should have no problem with encircling if you put your cavalry far enough from your infantry. oh and attack with all your infantry at once do not hold any back you will blow there moral.

**ProneStar!** · July 10, 2007, 09:45 PM

if you are going to field a mixed force that is Infantry heavy for the Byz heres a couple tips.

1. Use four groups of spearmen spread to ranks of three as your front line. Any additional spears use on your flanks as such /- - - -\ to catch any flanking attacks. The spearmen are primarily to absorb charges and to tie up the enemy.

2. Leave a small gap in between each front unit for a couple reasons, those being so you can easily bring your heavy infantry to bear and second to provide a wider front to intercept the enemy.

3. you dont want to have you units of heavy infantry spread that way, its only going to hurt you. Do it like this Latinkon-Varangian-Latinkon-Varangian
Rush your latinkon into the fray first and if possible leave you Varangian back and try to attack from the sides of the enemy as they are engaged as the varangian are shock troops best used to decimate the enemy quickly.

4. Seriously get mounted Latinkon as they are going to be your best heavy cavalry with a charge equal to western knights. They can be used to crush the enemy force witha solid charge. Then follow with another charge from you kataphractoi and leave them in melee with enemy cavalry as only tsars guards can beat them. Use you Horse archers to attack the ends of the enemy infantry and weaken it considerable so you can then begin encircling your enemy in a U.

5. Use your archers to pepper the enemy as much as possible when they are closing with you, focusing on the enemies best units and as soon as they take away a third of them change targets. When you men are engaged in melee with have your archers focus on the units furthest from your men in melee.

I usually have a cavalry heavy force in field battles and save my heavy infantry for any sieges i engage in.

**Lord Firkraag** · July 11, 2007, 02:49 AM

Thank you both for the help

A few things for clarification:

1. Is mounted Lantinkon that good? I used to get them all the time instead of Cataphracts because they look cool, but they would always lose against any other heavy cavalry (at least Cataphracts have armor piercing weapons).

2. When doing a double-line with infantry, is it best to send the second line in the gaps quickly, or wait till the enemy is tired fighting the spearmen (but has killed most spearmen already - well, larger gaps for the second line to go in).

3. Are Byzantine Guard Archers worth the extra melee abilities, or is it better to stick with Trebizond Archers? Most of the time I use them for concentrated attacks with fire arrows on unshielded units, in hopes to rout them.

4. Spearmen spread in ranks of three; is this for Huge unit size? Normal?

**Kratos** · July 11, 2007, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by Lord Firkraag

4. Spearmen spread in ranks of three; is this for Huge unit size? Normal?

I believe this should work for any unit size.

**mrcrusty** · July 11, 2007, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by Lord Firkraag

Thank you both for the help

A few things for clarification:

1. Is mounted Lantinkon that good? I used to get them all the time instead of Cataphracts because they look cool, but they would always lose against any other heavy cavalry (at least Cataphracts have armor piercing weapons).

2. When doing a double-line with infantry, is it best to send the second line in the gaps quickly, or wait till the enemy is tired fighting the spearmen (but has killed most spearmen already - well, larger gaps for the second line to go in).

3. Are Byzantine Guard Archers worth the extra melee abilities, or is it better to stick with Trebizond Archers? Most of the time I use them for concentrated attacks with fire arrows on unshielded units, in hopes to rout them.

4. Spearmen spread in ranks of three; is this for Huge unit size? Normal?

1. Personally I believe the Cataphracts are better because of the AP weapons (although their charge is lower then Latinkons I think), they are more expensive then Latinkon but I think that if you have the money to spare, get the Cataphracts instead.
It depends what you use the cavalry for, if you use the cavalry for prolonged periods, then use Cataphracts, but if you just want to use them purely for impact charges then go for Latinkons.

2. That really is a battle-by-battle thing although I prefer filling in the gaps if there is ample space meaning that your units won't get clogged up as much.
If one or two enemy units are losing plenty of men, charge your Varangians into them (higher charge and AP then other heavy infantry). If you're lucky you'll cause them to rout, which could lead to a mass routing.

3. Personal preference, but with the way you play archers, it doesn't seem as if the Guard Archers are worth the extra cost. Keep with Trebbies

4. already been answered.

btw, are you playing online or just battles in the campaign?

**Battlehawk** · July 15, 2007, 08:38 PM

To take care of pike and musket combos as the Byz you need to account for one thing... fire by rank

Fire_by_rank is a bit of scripting that makes muskets, or any gunpowder inf, be in ordered lines to fire. This can be remedied by long range archers, namely Guard or Trebbies. These same archers can be used to decimate the missile vulnerable pikemen, unless they are Scottish. Usually quality shield and sword infantry will take care of pikemen, but if you can make them expose the flanks hit them, hit them hard. Cav around the rear will work wonders if they are attacking you. Just make sure the muskets are crippled before closing in.

If you are attacking them some wooden artillery works well, it can punch holes in them, used in combination with guard and treb archers, or even horse archers deployed in loose formation and constantly moving, like in cantabrian circle would work wonders. Alan horse would work well for striking exposed pikemen and musket formations.

**Dagonet** · July 18, 2007, 05:15 AM

Yip - archers>muskets in a shootout

Infantry options - dism lancers, varangian guard, byzantine infantry
Cavalry options - lancers, latinkon
HA - Skythikon
Foot missiles - really isn't the byzantine strong suit - pez archers

In general, units with armor peircing and high att are much better at dealing with cavalry than units with "bonus fighting cavalry" (varangian guard)

dism lancers and byz infantry aren't really there to win so much as tie up enemy infantry whilst the vg help your cav.

The general idea facing a regular army sword+spear+cav is not to have your cav fight their cav, but to have your cav flatten as much infantry as possible without getting stranded

Move in good order, your whol army closish to enemy, start the infantry dvance - charge enemy front with cavalry (timed so they're never too far or too long seperated from infantry - enemy cavalry attempts to stop the charge, your heavy cavalry is retargetted after hitting the eemy infantry onto the enemy cavalry, your sword inf moves chares their swords and spears, your axes charge their cavalry.

The varda are decent ha that double as decent medium cav - but no tparticularly good at either - and for 900 florins - mounted xbows will do much better for the cost - kept from the melee till parts of the enemy are easy to rear and rout ( or chase down enemy archers/naptha/javs ) obviously your alternative is skythkon - which suck as ha but are considerably cheaper than mtd xbows and more than capable of shooting down the likes of pikemen/fanatics/woodsmen etc

If a melee unit doesn't have the good morale flag and you want it to stick around - put some valor on it..might sound obvious but many peeps pick poor average morale armies then are shocked when they go running with 3/4 men left.

**Lord Firkraag** · July 18, 2007, 06:12 AM

Great, thanks for the tips, they're very helpful

**Sher Khan** · July 18, 2007, 11:40 PM

Dagonet, the Byzantines have an excellent foot archer option in the Trebizond Archers and the Byzantine Guard Archers, who can double as light infantry swordsmen on par with the excellent Ottoman Infantry, Venetian Archers, and Muslim Archers.

**ProneStar!** · July 20, 2007, 06:35 AM

I disagree with dagonet on a couple issues. Dismounted lancers, especially when they have upgraded armor, can stand up to almost all western knights in 1-on-1. Varangian are shock troops that meaning they arent used to stand, take the charge, and then take part in a prolonged melee. They can do this, but they are wasted if they are used this way. Whats best is to tie up the enemy units and then flank with the Varangians taking advantage of their charge bonus of 6 and quickly crush the enemy. With 1.2 the varangian destroy the majority of all ground troops and absolutely demolish any cavalry in a melee. Spearmen arent really useful except to have about 2 units spread out to absorb charges and tie up the enemy as you bring your heavy infantry to bear. The sythtikon are pathetic and should never be used except when you cant recruit a better horse archer. I would even prefer the slower byzantine cavalry archers than the sythitkon. The vardaritoi are the best fast missile cavalry in the game bar none. They are a fast moving unit, they have great armor for a light unit, and they have great attacks both ranged and melee, in no way are they medium cavalry, the only unit that matches that is the byzantine cavalry.

The trebizond archers are decent foot archers, and byzantine guard archers are amazing(if you add ap to their attributes like it should have been they are they best archers in the game) not only do they have a great ranged attack(especially against hordes of lightly armored enemies, silly turks) they can stand up against other factions medium infantry 1-on-1 and will probably win.

Though my favorite army for field battles is to run a parthian strategy with byzantium's great cavalry. A combined force of Vardartoi, Latinkon(for charges), and Kataphractoi is almost impossible to beat. The vardartoi decimate enemies at range and can stay out of melee until they run out of arrows(if your archers have arrows left after a battle then you need a better strategy) then use the Katapractoi to hammer a unit with their charge and engage in melee, as you charge the other side of the unit with Latinkon. I have never lost a battle with this strategy, even when i play online or on lans. The sheer maneuverability of this force is tough to play against even when the entire battle on both sides is cavalry. The only unit that can cause difficulty is the Tsars guard as they are magically overpowered and for some reason destroy other units even when you have "adjusted" the stats of your own units. I mean the Tsars guard dont have great attack or armor, and they arent effective against armor i mean what the hell? I guess it was to make up for the fact that the russians dont have very good infantry.

**Lord Firkraag** · July 20, 2007, 08:15 AM

I sometimes try to do it the historical way (alternate cavalry archer volleys with cataphract charges) but my problem is that half the time, the cataphracts and latinkon break morale as soon as I withdraw them, to charge again.

At least I am using the awesome that is Byzantine Guard Archers. They are excellent, even when the enemy tries to flank and get them, they own him or at least hold long enough until I can reinforce their position.

Vardariotai are awesome, in the campaign I killed the Turks with Vardariotai armies (you know how every time a mission gifts you with units, they are Vardariots), but for custom battles/multiplayer, they are so expensive...

**delra** · July 25, 2007, 04:05 PM

Guard archers with varangian guard behind their back to counter charge. Cataphracts or latinkons on flanks to annihilate any cavalry he brings and some vardariotai to backstab when he's engaged with my troops, flank, chase routing units, do anything else that has to be done, to win the battle in general.

**mbchudno** · September 21, 2007, 11:36 AM

using full stack of Vardariotai with general feels like cheating. Fast moving heavy cav with full quiver of arrows that hit like truck and great melee ability.... nuff said. Its a bit expensive and can only be replenished at castles so good economy is a must.

**Starlightman** · September 22, 2007, 06:50 AM

I agree with Adrian,second army in the main army and flanking with the cavalry from both sides when the infantry pin out the enemy infantry and...attacking first the enemy general with the cavalry and your general(behind the enemy line).
Try more tactics to find yoyrself!

"η ταν η επι τας"

**mbchudno** · September 21, 2007, 09:47 AM

byz are ultimate missile cavalry nation in the game. 3 different cav units from basic castle and all 3 are missile cav units. Using stack of Vradotai feels like cheating against AI on maps with wide open spaces.

**xveys** · April 02, 2011, 02:41 AM

I usually use Varangians and Dismounted Latinkons to suicide-attack the enemy and then flank them with missile cavalry. other than these, i generally pack my army with archers and maybe 1 trebuchet and 1 general. i always use the archers to get to a safe distance and use flaming ammo. trebuchet with cow carcasses and flamming ammo too