Phalanx = Superman

[silverster]

I am in a H/H game and now is 194BC just after the Marian Reforms...

I have been at war with Selecuids for 30 years now... (I am also fighting Germans and Macadonians, so 30 years is acceptable to me...) the Selecuid Elite Phlanx is unbeatable. Even after the Roman Marian reform. the only reaso I can actually beat them at battle is because of the Iberian Slingers shooting rocks at their back, there is no chance for my cohorts to do any real damage out fornt (I mean no damage at all)

Flanking with cavalry at rear do not exactly work either (U HAVE TO use Thessalonician Cavalry OR BETTER with Wedge with full charge to do any damage... then the Phalanx swordman will just beat the cavalry a back... waste of expansive Thessalonician Cavalry) The Phanalx is TOO strong.

I am not complaining about the effect of the Sarissa on the front (which is quite historically accrurate, being an unbreakable wall), But why are they soo strong with broad swords at rear? Even the Hand-to-hand fighting with swords instead of Sarissas at rear, they can slaghuter over HALF of a Marian cohort fighting at their REAR (both with Swords). WHILE they are being attacked in the front by another Cohort....

I lost over half of a Full Stack Legion Fighting a full stack of selecuids. And i just recruited them at italy... the fresh marian legions off to a bloody start... Cost me a fortune too.

[Kennylz]

Might have to do with you playing oh Hard. Stat bonuses. Other then that, it sounds pretty refreshing, RTR gimps them compared to other mods.

Also, isn't it fact that using wedge formation is pretty detrimental? It just puts your general in danger, and doesn't held your cavalry charge at all, because the back of the unit doesn't get the charge bonus.

Most effective charge is for your front row to be about just a little thinner then the enemys formation, so you can get the most bang for your buck.

Correct me if Im wrong.

[silverster]

Might have to do with you playing oh Hard. Stat bonuses. Other then that, it sounds pretty refreshing, RTR gimps them compared to other mods.

Also, isn't it fact that using wedge formation is pretty detrimental? It just puts your general in danger, and doesn't held your cavalry charge at all, because the back of the unit doesn't get the charge bonus.

Most effective charge is for your front row to be about just a little thinner then the enemys formation, so you can get the most bang for your buck.

Correct me if Im wrong.

If i use norman line formation for charging, the cavalry will jus get beat the **** out of them by the Phalanx swordman....

Oh i am sick of those Phalanxes.......

the only way that worked is to charge their rear with a unit of ELEPHANT.... WTF.... I have to reply on elephants to do a legion's job...

[Hells Bells]

If i use norman line formation for charging, the cavalry will jus get beat the **** out of them by the Phalanx swordman....

Oh i am sick of those Phalanxes.......

the only way that worked is to charge their rear with a unit of ELEPHANT.... WTF.... I have to rely on elephants to do a legion's job...

my qarthadastei armies are figthing the ptolemies, and their phalangitai kick my dudes asses. I can only hold them back with my cavalry and skirmishers peppering them until they rout. actually attacking them unless they are completely surrounded does not work.

[eggthief]

You mean with phalanx the ablility they had in the vanilla rtw? I just started to play EB and I noticed that my Carthage spearman couldn't use it, is it for some units only or do you need to change some files?

[Pontifexus Maximus]

On my campaign, factions with hoplites are unbeatable too(they are made too strong). Historically roman legions(even pre-marian) were superior to hoplite phalanxes and crushed them.

[rasputin753]

i havent fought against the seleukid elite phalanx yet but i faced their epirote equals the epirote elite phalanx. and you are right about the more or less uselessness of cohorts against phalanxes, sometimes my troops get slaugthered but they haven´t even realized that the battle started since they are due to the long spears pretty far away from the epirotes.. but the thing that always saves me is my superior cavalry because the phalanxes can´t stand 2-3 good charge. but i always take 2-4 cavalry units and let them charge and than regroup .. charge, regroup.. it´s getting a bit annoying at the 10th battle thats the reason why i concentrate on gaul germania and england

[AceOfSpades]

I understand your frustration. What you need to do is take 3 or more heavy cavalry units, put them in wedge, and charge them in unison at a single phalanx on one side of the enemy’s line. Meanwhile you swing your missile units around the other side of the battle line and fire into the enemy phalanx’s backs (they’ll drop like flies). With your cav, you just charge and withdraw the second the impetus of the charge wears off. In EB, cav have a high defense but lower charge. In spite of the high charge stats the cavalry charge, left unsupported, isn’t as effective in simply causing casualties as is it in RTW or RTR. You must use cav to break the phalanx (along with causing a fair amount of casualties on the charge) then pull them back. Once the phalanx is broken and their unit has been cut in half (thank you wedge), you can withdraw then reform and recharge or keep moving down the line, breaking the enemy phalanxes so the legions can move through and get too close a pikeman’s comfort.
Remember to bring 1. several cav units, 2. put them all in wedge, 3. charge them all together and unison on ONE phalanx unit at a time, 4. Withdraw the second the charge bonus wears off (and their impetus is gone) unless you have such a large mass of cav you can knock the enemy phalanx off the map.

Good luck!

[Kennylz]

Well.. I have yet to actually fight a hoplite or phalanx yet, as Im deep into my first campaign as Casse. Is this a -real- problem, them being over-powered, or exaggerated some?

I'd expect atleast post-marian Legionaries to be able to take'm at the flanks!

[Birka Viking]

You must play M on battle and VH on campagne with EB. That is the settings EB-team recommend. Cheers

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Yeah, we really can't deal with balancing issues when H battles are being used - because the stat increases the player fights against are too unreasonable.

[Reno Melitensis]

I dont agree with you that Roman Legions where much better than phalanx infantry. Roman proffesional legions where indeed the best of the day, but historically they never encountered elite phalanx infantry. When the Romans faced the Selucids of Antiochus III they had a civillian army which had great expierence, having faught and defeated both Carhtage and Macedon. These man where a great fighting force equal to the proffesional legions. Yet at Magnesia, where the Selucids deployed their phalanx 30 man deep, the staying power of the phalanx pinned the roman infantry, and it was a cavalry charge on the flank by Cato that broke the Selucids.

I played a campain on VH/VH and I know how hard battles are, its quite impossible to break phalanxes. But if you deploy your romans, pre marian and post marian, in the triplex formation, outflank them with light missile infantry ( Lucanian infantry are superb for this task) and charge them in the rear with cavalry ( its important that after a succesful charge retreat your cavalry and charge again) they will break. In the end, I had to begin another campain on VH/N, because my rate of casualties was always too high, and invasions where always failures.

Cheers.

[silverster]

Yeah, we really can't deal with balancing issues when H battles are being used - because the stat increases the player fights against are too unreasonable.

no crap.... anyhow, i wonder if i deploy my legionaries in "Shield wall formation" (with BI of course) in rtr shield wall can push it's way through the Phalanx... I wonder if it works in EB?

[eventhorizen]

no crap.... anyhow, i wonder if i deploy my legionaries in "Shield wall formation" (with BI of course) in rtr shield wall can push it's way through the Phalanx... I wonder if it works in EB?

This is a strange topic, I never have alot of trouble beating a phalanx army if I have roughly comparable armies, and I always expect to take casualties sending units to fight the phalanx from the front.

Best way to fight a phalanx as Romans is to set a maniple in Guard Mode and march it up to the phalanx front, then attack from the sides. If you use anything less than Polybian Principes you will receive massive casualties in those units.

Once surrounded the phalanx is dead. Attacking it from the front is futile.

I have to say I am immensely impressed by the Greek and Makedonian troops in EB. The successor armies are immensely destructive, immensely flexible as a whole, but can also be immensely vulnerable. Getting to grips with the phalanx fighting as Makedon is alot different to phalanx in other mods, and alot different to the combat style of EB Rome, and from what I can tell to a fair extent the style of Carthage.

I fought Rome recently in a full stack pitched battle, and my Thrakio Peltastai used as shock troops combined to my Companions simply decided the battle. Half the Roman army were mercenaries which my Phezhetaroi pinned down for the majority of the fight. That is what I call historical accuracy.

[mAIOR]

I beliveve EB phalanxes are the best so far. The Phalanxes Historically were impossible to beat from the from Elite ones even more. I started a Medium battle dificulty in .81a because in my previous game in .80 I was always achieving Phyrric victories. Meaning, my invasions always got plundered as I'd have to have 4 full stacks to properly invade a country...

Cheers...

[AceOfSpades]

Is it possible to use shield wall if you installed onto RTW 1.5? Are there any mods that give 1.5 shield wall?

[swabian]

@sylvester & whoever
dunno what you're talking about. just throw some javelins at them, preferably from the back und use assault infantry, such as thrakioi peltastai with mean scythes, but i cant imagine that it could be so hard with pincipes. i smack dem agemata with naked germans & lusitanian light & medium infantry (H/VH). btw i love the lusitanians, definatley one of the coolest factions. also because they can have all the gaelic guys.

[Keravnos]

Historically the elite sarissa phallanxes were one of the toughest infantry formations to break. Eb immitates that fact.

[Darkmarko]

If the Phalanx/Hoplite units are so useful and great in EB.....why would you disable the ability for Spartans to be able to form it? Instead I have Spartan units fighting like javelin throwers.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

If the Phalanx/Hoplite units are so useful and great in EB.....why would you disable the ability for Spartans to be able to form it? Instead I have Spartan units fighting like javelin throwers.

Because Spartans didn't historically fight using the 'Macedonian' phalanx.