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  1. #1

    Default Venice: Review

    I've been thinking about writing another review since I jotted one out for Poland and it got so much good feedback (thanks to everyone who liked it by the way) and it seems natural for me to review my personal favourite. So here it is. Strategically Venice is a wonderful faction to start the game with, as the Italian cities are all wealthy and grow swiftly and they can quickly come to control every mediteranian island from Cyprus to Sardinia which can make them a very wealthy faction.

    The 'complex' of cities in Northern Italy (Florence, Venice, Genoa, Milan, Bologna) is probably the greatest single production area in the entire game. Converting Bologna and Florence to castles is expediant; very soon you'll have three mutually supportive huge cities and two citidels able to produce three entire full stack armies every four turns. Europe cannot compete with this concentrated production. So grab those cities!

    Now aside from in the very early game Venice has a fantastic unit lineup, it's really quite amazing, and the game may claim they do not boast a 'Noteworthy land army' but don't let this intimidate you as Venice's forces are easily the equal of any major European nation. It's not all very easy, though, if you want a nice challenge try leaving Sicily alone and not rushing them; as although they can easily be taken out with a swift rush by about turn sixteen if you leave them you're going to have some very fun battles being outclassed by their superb early and middle game soldiers.

    Normally I consider tier one units only when I review a factions early game forces, but when it is Venice in question, as with the other Italian states, their early cities and first conquests are advanced and fast growing Italian cities, so I will consider city units, rather than large town units, as tier one in this instance. Now, on to the unit review.


    Infantry


    Venice's early game infantry is not particularly dangerous, but their trump card is availability. Most factions can produce Armoured Seargents and Seargent spears in the early game from castles, with their towns producing far inferior spear and town militia. For Venice this is not the case, as Italian Militia are as effective as Seargent Spearmen, and Italian Spear Militia are as effective as Armoured Seargents.

    Carrocio standards are the one early game unit Venice gets that is truly special, and it can really make a difference to your early game armies. Not only does it bolster the morale of everyone around it, making it feasable to fight without generals in certain situations, the standard itself is accompanied by a small bodygaurd of Armoured Seargents who cannot be broken. This makes them a very useful unit! They literally cannot run away, point blank, and fight to the death regardless of odds. This can give your army invaluable second chances as if your main line is broken, and you possess a few standards in the rear the enemy must kill every single gaurd, giving you precious time to rally your men and form a new battleline. This unit is also quite cheap, although the initial investment of 700 or so Florins certainly isn't, their upkeep of a mere 70 per turn certainly is! And as their initial price is so high the game engine considers them one of the best units you can train, and what that means is it's quite possible to be rewarded with four of them for free on completion of certain missions. Very handy. They do slow your forces down, but in the claustrophobic environment of Northern Italy in your early battles with Milan this is not so noticable.

    As the game progresses and you're packing fortresses and large cities your infantry becomes quite the impressive force. Not only do you receive the standard European DFK, you get quite literally the finest infantry soldiers on earth. Venetian Heavy Infantry are truly as hard as nails. With 16 attack nothing can confidently stand up to their armor-peircing warhammers, and with 16 defense they are very well protected for a unit of shock infantry, with shields to give them far more survivability against missile attacks than contemporary 2-handed ap troops. Of course the shield is currently a liability in mellee, but don't let this deter you. Even with their shield value reduced Venetian Heavy Infantry are still one of the finest infantry units in the game, they're simply that lethal on the offensive. Now such a fine unit usually costs allot, comparable troops such as the HRE's fantastic armor-peircing dismounted Imperial Knights have a crippling upkeep of 250 a turn, you might expect something simmilar for Venetian Infantry, but you'll be pleasantly surprised. With a mere 150 upkeep they're actually cheaper to support than armored seargents! So cheap are they, in fact, that they easily can be used as Garrison troops in castles. Try fighting through the gate against them! It's not pretty.

    As the game grinds onward and you begin building Citidels and Huge cities you may initially be somewhat upset with your new infantry choices. When you view the statistics of dismounted men at arms and see that they're no better than dismounted Feudal knights you might wonder to yourself how you're going to go about storming castles in this late era. Well, the answer is of course Venetian Heavy Infantry. Build one from a citidel with a swordsmiths guild and take a look at their stats now. Scoring a free chevron at this stage and with armor and weapon upgrades they come off the shelf with 18 armor peircing attack and 18 defense. They are quite literally unstopppable. Even with the shield bug in full force they eat almost any infantry in the game for breakfast.

    In your cities, at this stage, you score militia pikemen. A lovely unit that makes your cities almost impossible to assault, and a unit which validates Venice's fine late game gunpowder by giving them the ability to produce pike and shot formations.

    In the end, Venice's infantry is largely vanilla in the early game with the simple advantage of availability (being able to produce decent spearmen from castles and cities) and the bolstering Carrocio standard to stiffen the line. They're hardly on a par with, say, the Danish, but they certainly get the job done.

    In the middle game Venetian Heavy Infantry ensure you a battleline that will not be outclassed, and in the late game they rise to the occasion with fantastic upgrades and perks to give you the same end result. Throw in dismounted men at arms and dismounted fuedal knights for units that, although not overly useful considering you have acess to something better and cheaper, will keep the game from getting too boring at the very least. Militia pikes round out their forces nicely for defensive purposes and also as an invaluable compliment to muskets in the gunpowder age.


    Archers


    As with their infantry Venetian archers start relatively slow but have some nice perks to round themselves out with. In the early game you'll have the standard lineup in your castles, Peasant Crossbowmen for cheap AP fire support and of course the ever-present peasant archers. Nothing special really, but from their cities Venice can produce Pavise Crossbow Militia, a fine unit at any stage of the game, with superb defense against missiles and a dauntingly high armor peircing attack of 12 they can really compliment your early game spear forces, providing an excellent way to tune up even the most heavily armored foes before the mellee, and with decent enough armor to survive a little combat unsuported.

    By the middle game your pavise crossbow militia are still a fine unit to use in many situations, from defending towns to the open field, but another unit comes along to compliment them here. Venetian Archers are a fine missile unit with 9 attack and mellee stats that are good enough for them to enter combat when the odds are in their favor. Though they cannot compete with the cream of the game's archery units (Dismounted Dvor, Byzantine Gaurd, Ottoman Infantry, Janissary Archers, etc) you'll still find them a very valuable unit to have on your side. Their upkeep is low enough for them to be placed in castle garrisons, and on the open field they can do all the things you would demand of a good archery unit. Whether this is punishing the enemy at range, or standing off against horse archers and other skirmishers they won't let you down in a hurry.

    In the late game Venice does not receive anything new regarding archers, aside from being able to give their Venetian Archers full plate, until gunpowder.

    All in all, Venice has a capable corps of archers from the early to late game. They're not so good that you would consider building your army around them at any point, but in a support roll they're unlikely to let you down.


    Cavalry


    The game has something against Venice's cavalry lineup, claiming it's rather weak. Well I'm going to say this is rubbish. Venice may not be the equal of Poland, the HRE or France but if you can't make effective use of the cavalry they do have then you're simply not a very good cavalry commander.

    In the early game they're dull, vanilla, with the basic lineup of Armoured Seargents and Mailed Knights. Nothing special, but good enough to round out armies consisting of Carrocio standards, Pavise Crossbows and Italian Spear Militia. Their cavalry at this stage is identicle to that of France, Milan, the HRE, etc. there's nothing unique or particularly effective about it, but for smashing into infantry and running down routers they do the job.

    In the middle game Venice is still on equal footing with the standard European Armies, receiving Fuedal Knights from their fortresses, but with the advantage of also getting a solid militia cavalry unit. Don't mistake these guys for Merchant Cavalry! They have lances and a decent charge bonus, and are very capable for their price and high level of availability. I personally prefer them to Fuedal Knights as the upkeep of these 'true' Knights is extortionistically high, and in addition building allot of cavalry militia is likely to score you a Horse Breeders guild. This is very important for Venice as they don't get jousting lists to improve their cavalry, so shoot for that guild HQ!

    By the late game Venice's castle-built heavy cavalry drop off. When many western nations are training the fantastic Chivalric Knights you receive Men At Arms, a reasonable unit with a solid armor value and a charge bonus of 7, but no match for Chivalrics, their upkeep is not particularly low although their recruitment cost is cheaper than Fuedal Knights, so think before you start building them as their price advantage cancels itself out the longer they're on the field.

    Of course getting mounted Crossbowmen from your castles helps to even the odds with cavalry, we all know how effective this unit can be after all. That's not all though as from their citidels Venice also receives quite possibly the best light cavalry in the game. The fantastic Stradiots. With a charge bonus of five and the "can_formed_charge" attribute they're the second best chargers in their category (after Hussars) in the game, and they also carry AP maces with a good attack as a secondary weapon. The best advantage of Stradiots is, however, their sheer speed. Their in-game mount is a 'fast pony' as opposed to the 'pony' of most light cavalry, allowing them to outrunn even units as quick as Border Horse and Hobilars. With their AP maces, then, it follows that Stradiots make fantastic troops for catching and butchering horse archers and other missile cav. In fact they're the ultimate answer to things like Jinetes and Reiters. With their feirce mellee stats and ap weapons Stradiots also do good service against hostile heavy cavalry. Although in equal numbers they loose, you must remember they're far cheaper than, say, Chivalric Knights. However the true asset of Stradiots is their flexibility via micromanagement. It's a proven fact that a unit of Stradiots can defeat a unit of Lancers if you make use of their speed to escape mellee to perform multiple charges, and this asset is just as effective against infantry units. Of course to do this in a pitched battle where many units are present is quite tough, but the option is there whether or not you choose to use it.

    Again Venice compliments it's castle-built units with a solid city built unit and this time it's a nice one; Broken Lancers. Much like Demi Lancers they lack the solidity of elite western cavalry, but have all of the punch. With 12 attack and a charge bonus of 8, there are few infantry units these chaps can't all but eradicate in one solid charge.

    So, all in all, Venice's cavalry is hardly weak. Their mixture of units is ecclectic, with some decent, albeit difficult to use elites (Stradiots and Broken Lancers) and allot of the basic European lineup (Feudal Knights and such) you have a good amount of choice and good counters to the things that might be inclined to cause you trouble while still packing some good heavy cavalry for the real buisiness of smashing infantry.


    Special Note


    In the late game, post-gunpowder, Venice is one of only four factions (Milan, Portugal, Spain and Venice) capable of fielding muskets and pikes, and one of only six factions (Portugal, Spain, Venice, Turkey and Russia) capable of receiving muskets. They are one of only five factions to receive mortars (Scotland, England, Sicily, Milan and Venice) and one of only two factions to receive Monster Ribaults (Venice and Milan) their gunpowder navy is also quite powerful. Venetian Galleass' absolutely crush Gun Holks and also defeat the Eastern Equivalent. All this said Venice is a true power in the gunpowder age.

    My final thought's on Venice are that they're one of the few factions that is truly strong through the entire game, with an effective, balanced army that does not come up wanting in any department. A great all-rounder, but with a nasty edge in infantry and gunpowder waiting to be exploited. One of the most rewarding elements of playing Venice is that although their early game forces do not lack, there's always better units to unlock and use until you play through to gunpowder. In other words, they start strong and they keep getting stronger. This makes their campaign a paced and relaxing affair as you never feel the need to rush, a fitting mood in which to take command of The Most Serene Republic of Venice.

  2. #2
    Town Watch's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Venice: Review

    Nice overview. Plus, venetians have the coolest colour scheme. Venetian Feudal knights look absolutely stunning. Weird...

    Militia cavalry are very useful indeed, you start getting them quite early in the game, since what you should do in vanilla, is to boost your economy straight from the beginning: Roads, land clearance, markets, ports...

    I gotta try out those stradiots sometime. I got bored in my last venetian game, those pesky byzantines, milanese, germans, hungarians and sicilians were all at war against me, at the same time

    I strongly advise to take action against the byzantines or hungarians quite quickly in the campaign.

    I don't really think monster ribaults are that awesome though. Rocket launchers are the ultimate artillery of apocalypse, so get them. Because they are the best. The end. You get them as mercenaries from somewhere.
    "What do I feel when I kill my enemy?"
    -Recoil-

  3. #3

    Default Re: Venice: Review

    Nice review! I seen the Poland review and that was helpful as well. Straditots are amazing, or so I've heard. In fact, there was one thread claiming them to be nearly invincible (not really, but still good). Monster Ribaults are fine for attacking walls, but I do prefer Rocket Launchers. They're so unpredictably awesome, it bottles (yes, I know I used 'bottles' ) the mind! Good job on the review, keep them up!

  4. #4

    Default Re: Venice: Review

    I don't really think monster ribaults are that awesome though.
    If you've read my artillery review thread you'll know I agree. Rocket Launchers are brutal, but difficult to recruit (mostly in far eastern Europe post-mongols as mercenaries) so not really a viable option for Venice if you want a good supply. The advantage of monster ribaults is they absolutely crush the morale of whatever they're firing at, and pack slightly superior firepower than Musketeers into a much smaller area, though with limited ammunition. So in instances where your opponant is attacking across a narrow front (Bridges for example) monster Ribaults can concentrate an overwhelming amount of firepower on their lines.

  5. #5
    Town Watch's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Venice: Review

    Quote Originally Posted by dad_savage View Post
    If you've read my artillery review thread you'll know I agree. Rocket Launchers are brutal, but difficult to recruit (mostly in far eastern Europe post-mongols as mercenaries) so not really a viable option for Venice if you want a good supply. The advantage of monster ribaults is they absolutely crush the morale of whatever they're firing at, and pack slightly superior firepower than Musketeers into a much smaller area, though with limited ammunition. So in instances where your opponant is attacking across a narrow front (Bridges for example) monster Ribaults can concentrate an overwhelming amount of firepower on their lines.
    It's just so... beutiful... to see all your rocket launchers start their barrage of fire.

    Enemies just ignite, rockets seem to find their marks, no one is safe, barrage continues. Medieval gatling GAU-2/A. A new rack of rockets is placed etc... Once again.
    Everyone just dies.

    I mean, I once saw in attila16's turkish chronicles, a bridgehead battle, attila16 had only 1 rocket battery, yet it killed like 200 enemies, and routed quite many too.
    "What do I feel when I kill my enemy?"
    -Recoil-

  6. #6
    awisler's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Venice: Review

    Good review, venice is also my favorite faction. if you simultaneously take milan and genoa quickly, you are in perfect economic conditions. take florence, and also buy bologna for 6000 florings, alliance, trade rights, and a map info. from here you really can use the great units dad_savage discussed. i found that if you upgrade venetian archers and venetian heavy infantry to full plate, then add in dismounted feudal knights to take a bit of the initial charge, your near unstoppable.

  7. #7
    Romanos's Avatar Hey
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    Default Re: Venice: Review

    Moved to the Battle Planning.
    Under the Great and Honorable Patronage of Fabolous
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Venice: Review

    Good review. Venice is my favorite faction and I keep on finding myself returning to them.

    I do have one recommendation though for your reviews, add a section for geography. Venice joins Milan and Sicily in benefiting from being in the middle of the map, and on the Med. The distance-to-capital penalty is not as painful (you could always move your capital but I like to keep the original). Venice also starts with control of Crete giving you a naval base halfway or so to the Holy Land, as well as a place to spit out the excellent Italian Spear Militia.

    As far as converting two northern Italian cities into castles in the long run I don't think that is advisable. Venice can spit out some of their best troops from cities. An army of Italian Spear Militia, Pavise Crossbowmen Militia, and Italian Merchant Cavalry led by a general is more than enough to beat any early AI army, and in the later periods I would hope you would have a buffer zone around northern Italy, specifically Bern and Innsbruck which happen to be castles in the passes through the Alps leading to northern Italy.

  9. #9
    Town Watch's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Venice: Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Lubeck View Post
    Good review. Venice is my favorite faction and I keep on finding myself returning to them.

    I do have one recommendation though for your reviews, add a section for geography. Venice joins Milan and Sicily in benefiting from being in the middle of the map, and on the Med. The distance-to-capital penalty is not as painful (you could always move your capital but I like to keep the original). Venice also starts with control of Crete giving you a naval base halfway or so to the Holy Land, as well as a place to spit out the excellent Italian Spear Militia.

    As far as converting two northern Italian cities into castles in the long run I don't think that is advisable. Venice can spit out some of their best troops from cities. An army of Italian Spear Militia, Pavise Crossbowmen Militia, and Italian Merchant Cavalry led by a general is more than enough to beat any early AI army, and in the later periods I would hope you would have a buffer zone around northern Italy, specifically Bern and Innsbruck which happen to be castles in the passes through the Alps leading to northern Italy.

    Really with Venice, I strongly advise to turn Florence into a castle as quickly as you can. It's really a poor and undeveloped city from the beginning. Although it grows pretty quickly I think, in terms of population.

    It's on a good place right there in the middle, to provide those handy venetian heavy infanteries.
    "What do I feel when I kill my enemy?"
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Venice: Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Town Watch View Post
    Really with Venice, I strongly advise to turn Florence into a castle as quickly as you can. It's really a poor and undeveloped city from the beginning. Although it grows pretty quickly I think, in terms of population.

    It's on a good place right there in the middle, to provide those handy venetian heavy infanteries.
    Yah it is poor and undeveloped, which is why converting it to a castle is a waste of time IMHO. That time and money spent on changing it over could be better spent on upgrading the city. Besides, like I said Bern and Innsbruck are right there in the middle as well, or you have Palermo down on Sicily to have a castle smack dab in the middle and the entire Med as a highspeed highway to bring reinforcements across your territories.

    That and to give the game a bit of a challenge I never take Florence and let Milan take it. As Venice I tend to put my focus on the Balkans (Zagreb and Durazzo before Hungary and the Byzantines can get them) and moving towards Crete to keep it from falling to the Byzantines/Turks/Egyptians.

  11. #11
    Town Watch's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Venice: Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Lubeck View Post
    Yah it is poor and undeveloped, which is why converting it to a castle is a waste of time IMHO. That time and money spent on changing it over could be better spent on upgrading the city. Besides, like I said Bern and Innsbruck are right there in the middle as well, or you have Palermo down on Sicily to have a castle smack dab in the middle and the entire Med as a highspeed highway to bring reinforcements across your territories.

    Sorry to smack your humble opinion , but as you check the building browser, the venetian heavy infantry doesn't require the best barracks or anything. You'll often have problems with squalor and such in case of cities.

    I'd say it's more expensive to make it a decent city, than a VHI- training ground. Bern and Innsbruck aren't gonna help, when some crazy french or moors come via naval routes into mainland italy. That's why I always make Florence a castle.

    It's a long way from Inssbruck or Bern to even come to aid in defence of Genova/Milan, in case the french attack from around Marseilles, or from the sea.

    Well, its just my playing style, it does create a more stable defence in northern italy though...
    "What do I feel when I kill my enemy?"
    -Recoil-

  12. #12
    thoscme's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Venice: Review

    very very very nice and handy review!
    it was good reading, just as your review for poland.
    (btw, poland is.. great!! i played it for like 6 hours last night, i had 4 huuuge battles against russia, most fun campaign i ever played! now i'm in the middle of a crusade, wich i called )
    gotta love you reviews!

    keep it up

    hope to see some more of them too!

    proud norwegian

  13. #13

    Default Re: Venice: Review

    Excellent review. VHI are easily my favourite foot soldier in the game.

    Mortars are highly underrated. While I never use them in the field, I always have a couple of crews in my castles. They never fail to take out rams and trebs. I managed to hold off full stack after full stack of mongols at Acre (citadel) with a small garrison of 4x Armoured Seargents, 2x VHI, 2x Mortars, and what remained of some pilgrims from an earlier crusade.

    It did fall in the end, but only through bribery and not by force of arms, and only after about four full stacks of mongols were cut down trying to take it.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Venice: Review

    Again a nice review - if only this had come before the Poland review... fighting in the godless and endless lands of the Baltic's is not fun as i spend more time shuffling troops around then actually fighting.

    I did try an aborted game with Venice - played on medium level and was overrunning everyone before i even got to gunpowder, so quited and started on Poland at hard. Oh well - interested to get your take on the Turks as i after i finish Poland i would like to try a Islamic nation

  15. #15
    awisler's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Venice: Review

    town watch i agree, florence is a key city to make a castle. turn palermo into a city! it will be extremely wealthy, much wealther than florence will ever be. and the very good militias can easily hold off france, hre, and hungary. i never have trouble with the byzantines if i let them have durazzo. from florence you can easily defend any of your italian provinces and ragusa allows easy movement through greece and the balkans. florence can also help you reach up through parts of france/hre, until you castle bern/innsbruck.

    if you are really worried about a hre/france attack though, block off all the passes with forts that have just 1-2 militia spear units. this way, you have an extra turn or two to mobilize since they would have to take the fort first.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Venice: Review

    the first thing i would do is take over milan,sicily,and force the pope on a small island then i would secure the northern borders all the while buinding up my trade and armys.

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