(Moved to Vote)Named Support Amendment

[Erich von Manstein]

Proposer: Manstein16
Supporters: Seneca*, deRougemont, happyho, Arakorn-eir, Makanyane, Halie Satanus, Gaius Baltar, Hotspur, Perikles, Cymera, Aristophanes

*Pre-amendment approval

Rationale:

Much of the Constitution has been reformed in the past few months to reflect the Community's desire to create a Curia that is more representative of the Community. Despite this, Citizens still have no influence in determining which proposals are brought to a vote; namely, the section of the Constitution requiring all proposals in the Curia to have the named support of three patricians before it can be moved to a vote. There are two problems with this: it diminishes Citizen rights in the Curia and it potentially enables a small group of opponents to effectively control all proposed legislation. Therefore, I humbly propose the following changes to the Constitution:

Article 3 - Legislative Procedure
Any Citizen may post a bill in the Prothalamos for discussion. Bills can take two forms.
Amendments - A proposal to alter the text of the Constitution. Amendments can alter or remove existing text and add entirely new text.
Decisions - A proposal for the creation of an official Decision of the Curia on a topic relevant to the functioning of TWC. The Curia has authority to direct the Officers of TWC in this way on any topic of which the primary say has been delegated from the Officers, who shall take such Curial Decisions under strong advisement. The Speaker of the House shall determine if proposed Decisions fall within the jurisdiction of the Curia.

The procedure for proposing and voting on either bill is the same. Each version of the bill requires named support from at least three two Patricians and two Citizens and must be debated for at least three days in the prothalamus before the proposer can request the bill be moved to vote. If, after three days the debate is still active, the Curator may delay moving the bill to vote after one month. A delay of longer than a month is at the Curators discretion only upon at least three two Patricians and two Citizens requesting more time for debate.

Under this change the Patrician class will still retain some of their previous authority, just not to the extent they had previously. Citizens will find themselves with more power over proposed legislation, allowing for a more balanced system.

[deRougemont]

As a citizen, I don't feel belittled. I think it is good to have a patrician class, in principle. Perhaps rather than amending the constitution more Patricians should be created instead. Surely there are enough people here worthy of the such a status.

[Cymera]

I agree with deRougemont. Perhaps there should be more patricians as opposed to changing this procedure.

[deRougemont]

I'd just like to add that though I understand the recent pushes for "democratizing" the site, I think that the current "meritocracy" that exists should remain in place. A few reasons:

1.) it encourages activity on the site both in terms of modding and debating through a system of special public recognition and reward
2.) it assures that those involved with managing the constitution are long-term, active members who have a vested interest in the site's success
3.) it builds relationships among members by relying on those at the top paying attention to those on the bottom since those with merit must be recognized by those who have already achieved it

Besides, according to the FAQ, the requirements for becoming a Patrician are not so difficult to obtain:

Patrician



Patricians are those Citizens who have continued to excell in their position within the forum by contributing to a greater extent than their citizenship requires. A Citizen may be nominated to this rank by another Patrician. Patricianship is awarded by the Consilium de Civitate for significant contribution to TWC. None of these contributions provide automatic promotion, but instead allow for nomination. The nominee must also have been a Citizen for at least one month and have no warnings at the time of their election. A Patrician has all the rights of a Citizen, and in addition becomes eligible to be considered for higher office. Patricians are also required sponsors of Bills.

It seems the real problem is that this rank is under-utilized. Perhaps current Patricians should use their priviledges to flesh out the ranks of the class. Would it not be better for those with the power to do so to spend more time recruiting new blood?

Also, this "elite" or "meritocratic" system we have in place is supposed to reflect the games to which the site is dedicated (I assume). Both Rome and Medieval Europe were based on creating elites, not democracies. This gives the site a special flavor that is different and unique from our real life societies, thus making the "government" here much more interesting.

Perhaps we should wait until Napoleonic: Total War before democratizing the current method of operation.

[Denny Crane!]

Actually I disagree with it encouraging modding, something that is a real problem is getting modders in here.

I think making it more accessible is the way forward. I realise having a large open curia caused problems last time but it was under different owners and different staff.

Peter

[Erich von Manstein]

I think making it more accessible is the way forward.

Does this mean you support?

[deRougemont]

I think making it more accessible is the way forward.

I agree. But why not create more patricians first rather than taking such a radical approach? This is really a question that should be answered by current Patricians and by those who support. I must be missing something here...

[Denny Crane!]

Yes indeed, I like it.

Peter

[Denny Crane!]

Its just different views of what makes it more accessible. I think a generous power sharing way is the best.

In that respect of course I have always favoured a dual house system, like Britain or others with similar establishments. Part of that system is not having the lower system powerless.

Peter

[deRougemont]

The way this bill would be worded the Patrician class is virtually unnecessary (it would be very easy to find at least one Patrician for any given bill). So why not disband that class entirely if it serves no function?

[Erich von Manstein]

The way this bill would be worded the Patrician class is virtually unnecessary (it would be very easy to find at least one Patrician for any given bill). So why not ban that class entirely?

Not necessarily. I have seen numerous bills posted in the past that have acquired support from multiple Citizens but none from the Patricians.

However, if you would like to propose a ratio that you would find preferable, please do so. I would consider modifying the current ratio to acquire your support (not that it matters under the current Constitution, but it is the spirit of the thing that counts).

[deRougemont]

Not necessarily. I have seen numerous bills posted in the past that have acquired support from multiple Citizens but none from the Patricians.

However, if you would like to propose a ratio that you would find preferable, please do so. I would consider modifying the current ratio to acquire your support (not that it matters under the current Constitution, but it is the spirit of the thing that counts).

How about still making the Patrician rank necessary for pushing a bill, with one more Patrician and two citizens necessary for support. This would give a 2:2 ration while still giving the Patricians more weight in the matter. This would also give the citizens importance, as you would be required to have citizen support.

[Erich von Manstein]

I was actually imagining the same ratio just now. Seems fair to me. Done.

[deRougemont]

I was actually imagining the same ratio just now. Seems fair to me. Done.

This sounds fair to me as well, reflecting a more bicameral system that Seneca mentioned (yet maybe Patricians should still be the only group to be permitted to propose legislation).

[the Black Prince]

it has been a long long time since anyone nominated anyone for patrician. i think perhaps that is the problem here. the last nomination the CdeC voted on was (i think) makanyane, and then several months went by till i nominated bulgaroctonus, and since then, no one.

this amendment would instead best be served by the deserving and qualifying citizens being nominated by their peers, instead of belittling the too small number of patrcians we currently have.


incidentally, if any citizen believes there to be an outstanding citizen worthy of becoming a patrician who isnt yet one, PM me their name, and if i agree, i'll nominate them!

[Erich von Manstein]

Self-patronization, especially of a rank as esteemed as Patrician, would sort of defeat the purpose, wouldn't it? By this I mean that part of the aura of the Patrician class lies in the fact that one's peers felt that one was deserving of the nomination, rather than the individual himself. There are many (in my opinion) Citizens worthy of nomination to the Patrician class. The Patricians seem unwilling or unable, however, to expand their ranks. Which is why I have submitted the above proposal. I dislike the notion of a few dozen members of this site holding complete sway over any and all legislation. Were the Patrician class more representative of the site, nay, even the Citizenship, this wouldn't be as much of an issue. This is not the case, however, which is why I have submitted the proposal. The Citizens should not be expected to reach the halls of power simply by sitting around and waiting for a Patrician to nominate them when the facts (as you presented) point out that these nominations have been virtually non-existent recently. Certainly this shouldn't be expected when the Citizens hold the means to take the initiative, as I am hoping to do here.

Incidently, it was not my intention to antagonize the current Patricians with my bill. I simpy wish to remove a potential exploit before someone at some point in the future attempts to use it.

[deRougemont]

Self-patronization, especially of a rank as esteemed as Patrician, would sort of defeat the purpose, wouldn't it? By this I mean that part of the aura of the Patrician class lies in the fact that one's peers felt that one was deserving of the nomination, rather than the individual himself. There are many (in my opinion) Citizens worthy of nomination to the Patrician class. The Patricians seem unwilling or unable, however, to expand their ranks. Which is why I have submitted the above proposal. I dislike the notion of a few dozen members of this site holding complete sway over any and all legislation. Were the Patrician class more representative of the site, nay, even the Citizenship, this wouldn't be as much of an issue. This is not the case, however, which is why I have submitted the proposal. The Citizens should not be expected to reach the halls of power simply by sitting around and waiting for a Patrician to nominate them when the facts (as you presented) point out that these nominations have been virtually non-existent recently. Certainly this shouldn't be expected when the Citizens hold the means to take the initiative, as I am hoping to do here.

Incidently, it was not my intention to antagonize the current Patricians with my bill. I simpy wish to remove a potential exploit before someone at some point in the future attempts to use it.

So perhaps the first move would still be for the Patricians to conference and come up with a scheme to start nominating others for the rank of Patrician on a more regular basis. I think a bicameral proposal initiative is a good idea, but addressing the root problem - lack of patronization for this higher rank - should be seriously addressed.

[the Black Prince]

i hope my post in the curia main goes some way to addressing this concern!

[Erich von Manstein]

This concern regarding a lack of Patricians has been continuously raised since January at the latest, yet nothing has been done about it in the following three months. I've waited 2 months to submit this proposal in the hopes that another solution would present itself; since it has not, I went ahead and submitted it.

[happyho]

Well I for one like Manstein16's proposal. The Patrician class is I believe a necessary and a good part of the Curia, clearly some members are more active than others and are as such deserving of distinction. However I don't believe that leaving all the power in regards to sponsoring bills in their hands is a good thing. Having the same small 'elite' group deciding which bills move to a vote every time is not a good thing for democracy.

Having the ability to become one of the sponsors of a proposal they like, may get more Citizens active in the Curia because they will then believe that their participation is more vital to the development of the new policies of TWC. Not enough Citizens seem to take an active role in the Curia, anything that can change that trend without throwing open wide the doors of Citizenship to anyone and everyone will have my support.